Thursday, May 14, 2009, at 12 noon, U.S. Eastern time

What nonprofit leaders need to know about loans and tax-exempt bonds, as well as tools foundations can offer, such as program-related investments and recoverable grants.

As the recession deepens, some charity and foundation leaders are looking at financial tools that are not now in wide use. Such moves might make sense for some grant makers and for some nonprofit groups, but leaders should understand the risks and benefits of loans, tax-exempt bonds, and other tools.

This discussion will include answers to specific questions about how different financing options work, the benefits of each, and helpful hints about managing potential challenges.

The Guests

Clara Miller, is president and chief executive officer of Nonprofit Finance Fund in New York. Ms. Miller and her consulting firm provide financial advice to nonprofit groups nationwide.

Tom Manning is director of capital access programs for the Primary Care Development Corp. in New York. He manages financing programs that have created more than $200-million in health-care facilities in underserved communities in New York State.

Elizabeth C. Sullivan is vice president for community investment at the Community Foundation for Southeast Michigan in Detroit, where she oversees the program development and grant making, and is chairwoman of the Nonprofit Finance Fund. Previously, Ms. Sullivan was senior vice president of The Kresge Foundation, where she developed and managed the foundation's PRI program.

A transcript of the chat follows.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Welcome to the first in a series of live discussions hosted by the Chronicle and Nonprofit Finance Fund about financial strategies for nonprofit groups during tough times. We'll be conducting four free question-and-answer sessions on this topic. You can find more information about the series here: http://philanthropy.com/live/recession_series/

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Today, we'll be discussing what nonprofit leaders need to know about financing options, such as loans and tax-exempt bonds, as well as tools foundations can offer, such as program-related investments and recoverable grants.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Our guest experts include three professionals who are well versed in these financing options. Our guests include:

* Clara Miller, president and chief executive officer of Nonprofit Finance Fund in New York.

* Tom Manning, director of capital access programs for the Primary Care Development Corp. in New York.

* Elizabeth C. Sullivan, vice president for community investment at the Community Foundation for Southeast Michigan in Detroit.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Please feel free to ask them questions during the next hour. You can do so by clicking on the "ask a question" link on this page and then typing in your query. This discussion is in a text format, so there is no need to call in or activate audio. This page will refresh every minute with the latest information.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    With that, let's get started.

Question from Lisa Cremin, community foundation for greater atlanta:
    I am interested in knowing of good models for loans in this weak ecomony that might span a multi-year payback horizon. In what cases is this a good strategy for nonprofits? Does the loan strategy work better for smaller/mid-sized organizations or larger ones?

Clara Miller:
    It's very important to remember that loans are never a substitute for revenue. In fact, an organization taking a loan must have reliable, visible revenue available to repay principal and interest at a future point (or over a future period). The matches we have seen include extending existing bank lines of credit against government receivables, where government is taking longer to pay than in the past (but the program, e.g., Medicaid, remains in force); replacing lines of credit where banks are no longer providing them in a particular market or to a particular borrower; and in some cases, providing mortgages to credit worthy organizations who can borrow for a building in a buyers' market (now!). Loans are helpful to large and small organizations alike, but any borrower must have the ability to project cash flow over the term of the loan, predict the reliable source of repayment (as well as a contingency plan if that doesn't pan out), and have the management systems in place to make the payments on time. Lenders know that large, relatively simple transactions are generally more profitable than small ones so larger organizations may find it easier to access credit than small ones.

Question from Michael, small nonprofit:
    What are the pros and cons concerning no-interest loans from board members to the organization?

Tom Manning:
    Although a no-interest loan is a wonderful thing, any loan from a board member can create an uncomfortable situation in which the Board member might have undue influence over the organization. If this is a direction you feel you must go, make sure there is full disclosure, with all Board members participating in the decision to take the loan -- excepting, of course, the Board member in question who cannot participate in such a decision. Also, make sure the loan is fully and legally documented.

Question from Katherine Birnie, Maine Coast Heritage Trust:
    How have you seen nonprofits effectively fundraise for debt service?

Elizabeth C. Sullivan:
    Yes, but in few cases, and only through donors that are well known to the organization.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    We've received a couple of questions about the format for this discussion. This is a text-only discussion -- so there is no audio. You should see the questions and answers appearing on this page. The page refreshes every minute to include the latest information. Thanks.

Question from Jen Hopkins, NH Charitable Foundation:
    We are condidering cash flow loans for nonprofits, and wonder if you would have any recommendations on how to evaluate who would (or wouldn't) be a good candidate for a cash flow loan.

Tom Manning:
    The most important thing is to understand why there is a temporary need and how you will be re-paid (that is, what new source of cash to the non-profit will be used to pay you back).

The classic cash flow loan to a nonprofit stems from a government contract for which services and expenses occur now and payment from the government comes later.

The classic trap for a lender is getting involved with a borrower who is simply losing money, and not just getting past a temporary situation.

Question from DL, small nonprofit:
    When should nonprofits start looking at loans? Please let me know if there are certain indicators (e.g., 3 months operating expenses left in current assets) we should be watching out for to know when to start thinking "emergency mode." Thank you:)

Clara Miller:
    The answer to this one is a little counterintuitive: npos (or any borrower) should look for credit--and a banking relationship--in good times, when they don't have a pressing need for cash. Establishing a good relationship with a lender in good times will help the lender understand the nature of the organization, have faith in management, and be there--with some cavaets--when times get tougher. However, "emergency" and "loan" very seldom belong in the same sentence, because loans require trust, reliable revenue and predictability to be sound. If you are worried about future cash availability, still have money in the bank, and future revenue is in sight, project cash flow (revenue and expense) with a few scenarios (including a loan for times when cash is thin or nonexistent) This will start to tell you if a loan makes sense, or if this situation actually requires cost cutting.

Comment from Chris Heeg small nonprofit:
    On the question of a board member giving a no interest loan--in order for it to be legal at least a 1% interest rate must be charged

Question from Kate Mitchell, Museum Village, NY:
    What is a recoverable grant?

Elizabeth C. Sullivan:
    The term "recoverable grant" generally refers to a no-interest grant that holds an expectation of repayment. Recoverable grants have been used by some funders to help nonprofits develop the capacity to take on loans. Like a loan, a recoverable grant carries a repayment expectation that should be spelled out in the grant agreement or contract.

Question from Peter Panepento:
    Tom, what are some of the key questions organizations should be asking if they are considering taking on an expansion or new facilities project in this climate?

Tom Manning:
    The first question in this -- or any -- financial climate is, do I really need a new or expanded facility, or can I instead re-organize my operations in some acceptable fashion, or do some minor renovations. Implicit in this is clearly understanding the level of demand for the services you offer and the most efficient method of delivering those services.

Next you need to understand what a new or expanded building is likely to cost and what your funding sources might be - are grants available, can you afford debt, what debt options are available.

Question from Peter Panepento, moderator:
    What are some of the biggest mistakes nonprofit groups can make when they're facing a tough financial discussion in this economic climate?

Clara Miller:
    One mistake we see is denial or strong, silent behavior, where organizations (or individuals) become frozen because there's a highly unfamiliar level of uncertainty about revenue, and in some situations, an increased level of demand for services. This is a time to be communicating with board, funders, bankers and employees about possible alternate scenarios going forward

Another mistake is avoiding the financial facts--a lack of data tends to make an already emotional situation even more personalized. Data is a way to understand the boundaries of the problem, and focus everyone on meaningful solutions.

Finally, we see a tendency of boards to get involved in minute details of cost cutting--often to the detriment of program--when they need to focus on revenue as well. The shared responsibility of board and staff at a nonprofit is to make sure the organization serves the public--and now that's more important than ever.

Question from Kristin Marting, HERE Arts Center:
    In terms of PRIs in today's uncertain market, is a 2-3% interest rate on a long-term loan a reasonable rate of return to be discussing with foundations? Other than using an intermediary, what other simple structures exist to make a long-term loan tenable for foundations considering this idea?

Elizabeth C. Sullivan:
    Most PRI-making foundations will discuss probably interest rates with borrowers as part of their review/due dilligence and underwriting processes. It is generally a good idea to discuss interest rate and term in the very early stages of loan negotiation.

PRI models vary somewhat foundation to foundation (i.e., some foundations lend directly to nonprofit organizations, others use intermediaries, including CDFI's to support or manage their PRI portfolios).

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Thanks to everyone who has submitted a question thus far. Our guests are working to answer them now. To ask a question, click on the "ask a question" link on this page and type in your query.

Question from Larry Huff, Samaritan Inns:
    Please discuss tax-exempt bond financing. Briefly how it works and what is the current climate for such an arbitrage. Also note the intent of this financing is not for expansion or acquisition but current operations.

Tom Manning:
    I am not aware of any tax-exempt financing for current operations. Tax-exempt financing is typically only available for capital-eligible purposes.

For capital purposes, each state and most counties have agencies that can issue tax-exempt bonds. Bonds offer long-term loans at low interest rates, but carry many restrictions. They also have large up-front costs, especially legal costs, that typically mean that the facility must cost several million dollars before tax-exempt financing is advisable.

Question from J.R., private foundation:
    We do not make PRI's or recoverable grants but want to consider doing so. What recommendations do you have for foundations looking to begin work in this arena?

Elizabeth C. Sullivan:
    Two good suggestions: 1. Go directly to the PRIMAKERS Network website and look at the resources offered. The PRI Makers Network offers trainings, sample documents, examples and other resources that will allow you to get up to speed on PRI's and financing in short order.

2. Work with a good intermediary. Look for and talk to a Community Development Financial Institution (CDFI) in your community and/or check the Opportunity Finance Network site for a list of CDFI and financial intermediaries that understand lending to the sector.

Also, talk with your foundation colleagues that are lenders and learn about their programs. Most are very willing to share information.

Question from Michael Moss, National Black Arts Festival:
    Can you give greater insight into tax exempt bonds and what assessment tools are available to distinguish the risk factors associated.

Clara Miller:
    The simplest use of tax-exempt bonds is for financing a large asset (generally $10 million or more, though different states and issuers have varying thresholds)with a long-term life (10 to 30 years) by an organization with highly predictable revenue, frequently related to the asset itself (a classic is a college dormitory, where student fees can pay off the debt). The issuance costs are high (which is why it is important to look at "all in" costs of issuance and servicing, not simply interest), and they tend to be of limited flexibility with respect to renegotiation if things go wrong. Probably the best way for you to understand risk is to speak the CFO of an arts organization in your state that has used them. One guiding principle: don't be distracted by interest rate alone--there are many costs of issuance, especially if you're not accustomed to using bonds, including alot of staff time.

Comment from Trisha , Small nonprofit:
    I hear what all of you are saying, but needing to function and move forward in spite of the financial management mistakes made 5 years ago or more. We've floated along a while now with little in the way of new revenue sources and now find ourselves in a situation where there is LITTLE opportunity for new operating funds- and our steady revenue for years is now down. Looking at refinancing a building that was already refinanced 4 years ago for a remodel.. now we're concerned we won't be able to keep the door of our beautiful building open at all! Been hard to navigate through the mistakes of the past with individuals that know little about this kind of issue!

Question from tatiana, start-up nonprofit social venture:
    is there a way to structure recoverable grants so that they are essentially "equity" (i.e. the foundation receives the financial upside but risks losing the investment if the venture doesn't work) could yo point to some models?

Clara Miller:
    Yes, recoverable grants can be "equity," even though from a strict accounting and legal perspective, nobody can own a nonprofit, so if the venture in question is a nonprofit, it might work better to structure as a "forgivable loan," with repayments tied to profitability benchmarks. There are a variety of ways to structure what NFF calls "philanthropic equity" but the simplest is always best, and the brain damage of structuring (and predicting) the financial upside of a startup may burden the deal unnecessarily. The most important single distinction you and your funder can make is to understand that the "equity" is not revenue, even though in nonprofit accounting it will be treated that way.

Question from Rachel, small family foundation:
    Can you please explain how a PRI could work for a foundation that does not fund real estate/facilities?

Tom Manning:
    The PRIs could be for bridge financing to a grant or some other funding source. Equipment (or other capital, but non-real estate needs) is a possibility.

Question from Susan, funder:
    Is there an optimal loan length or do you recommend considering them on a case-by-case basis; what sort of monitoring by the funder do you recommend during the loan period?

Elizabeth C. Sullivan:
    PRI loan terms are best determined on a case by case basis -- the interest rate and length of the loan should be pegged to the financial plans reviewed, borrowers industry, and the experience of the lender and borrower.

Monitoring should include making sure that interest payments are made in a timely manner, and that repayment is made as scheduled. Most monitoring is tied to repayment dates. If you are funding a financial intermediary, you will also want to look at their loan portfolio.

Question from Accord business administration:
    We are launching a community health effort in Coney Island, Brooklyn. We are involved with private/public initiative HEAL 10NY RGA CHITA We are asking for additional financing complementing our proposed DOH funding related to creation of CHITA. We are also launching a community health effort towards NY state medically underserved communities utilizing our telemedicine capabilities We are asking for additional financing complementing our proposed DOH funding related to Telemedicine implementations Tom Manning, please advise us how to proceed.

Tom Manning:
    For something this specific, I'd suggest you contact PCDC directly and we'll see what make sense for your situation.

Question from DB, small nonprofit:
    Our current concern is building cash reserve to mitigate cash flow fluctuations. Are foundations responsive to requests to support cash reserve, rather than program-specific support?

Elizabeth C. Sullivan:
    Most foundations are not responsive to requests to support cash reserves.

Question from Tom B, Northlake Foundation.:
    How would our group make a PRI/SRI into an L3C organization? The group we are looking at is RBInternational L3C, and what type of return should we ask for?

Clara Miller:
    In many states (I know NY best, but there are others) foundations can make PRIs into for-profits, nonprofits, cooperatives and everything in between, as long as the investment fulfills the charitable purpose of the foundation. What's most important to you (and most of all, your borrower) is not your return, but their success. Without that, your return could be as low as negative the entire loan amount. With debt, the most difficult part to repay is not the 3 or 5 or even 10 percent interest, of course, but the 100 percent principal!!! Since I'm not sure if there are other lenders, that is an important part of the discussion. As a PRI provider, you may be asked to help get them into the deal. In any event, your borrower should come to you with a credible plan that includes projections showing how they intend to cover principal and interest payments on the debt portion of their overall financing plan, over the term of the loan in question, how varying terms and repayment schedules for principal and interest might help (or hinder) their progress and negotiations should start from there.

Question from Kate Mitchell, Museum Village:
    ...then a program-related investment would be...?

Elizabeth C. Sullivan:
    "A PRI is an investment made by a foundation in support of charitable purposes" (from the GrantCraft PRI publication). PRIs commonly refer to loans made by a foundation, and generally, PRI's look like loans in their terms of repayment. Most PRIs are loans or loan guarantees and are made with the understanding that the interest is below market rate.

Question from Amanda Jones, Out The Boat Ministires, Inc.:
    For a start-up that is going to be dealing heavily in real estate (we need properties to provide housing for youth), what tools would you suggest we investigate to help meet gov't matching requirements? We won't be operational in time to take advantage of the current real estate market, but I also understand that general funding is even tighter now because of the economic crisis.

Tom Manning:
    I'm not sure I fully understand the matching requirement you face, but it sounds like you need to find a grant source. For housing programs, the grants typically come from government. If the government is requiring a match, you will need to approach local foundations or any other friendly source that may be willing to give you a grant.

From the limited information available, it does not sound like a loan would be what you want at this time. It also sounds like it would be very hard to get a loan.

Question from Ruth Anne, Belize:
    Can you elaborate on PRIs?

Elizabeth C. Sullivan:
    Two great resources to check out: 1. GrantCraft has published "Program Related Investing: Skills and Strategies for New PRI Makers". This is available through GrantCraft, a program of the Ford Foundation.

2. The PRI Makers Network is a phenomenal web-based resource for those new to PRI making. YOu can find examples of different kinds of PRI's and information about PRI Makers.

Most foundation PRI's are made as loans or loan guarantees.

Comment from comment: Tom B, Northlake Foundation.:
    Thank you Clara for your insight. We have had our eyes on a couple of L3C organizations for awhile, as on paper they can provide some type of return in these economic times. Our money is decreasing and we really need to make an investment as soon as possible. Again thank you!

Question from A new 501 c, please help!:
    Will a new organization be able to acquire a building and etc with a loan without any established credit history? If so how would we go about doing so? Our plans are to fundraise, but our needs outweigh our plans, please help.

Tom Manning:
    It is always hard for a new organization to get a loan. Your ability to do so would depend on such factors as the strength of your balance sheet (in particular, how much cash you will have for operations after making the purchase); your plan for the building - the prospects for your future operations as demonstrated in a solid business plan; the prior experience of your staff in doing whatever you plan to do; the value of the property relative to the amount of the loan. Aggressive fundraising, as you plan, is always a good idea.

Question from Hilda Oropeza, BBBSA:
    Please tell us more about the risks of loans? I get the sense that some nonprofits think gettig a loan is the easy answer to their financial troubles.

Clara Miller:
    There's a terrific saying by Peter Bernstein, a guru on investing, about risk: "risk means not having cash when you need it." So in some cases, not having cash (from a loan) is riskier than taking the loan and having cash to, for example, meet payroll in advance of income that arrives in lumps and needs smoothing with respect to timing. That said, if organizations are facing reductions in revenue, loans are virtually never the answer. The main risk to the nonprofit from borrowing is doing so when they don't have a clear view of the means to repay the loan and a contingency plan if they cannot. Repayment problems (including a loan that is being repaid but burdens the nonprofit) can lead to the following: 1) the demands of debt repayment rob the program and burn out the staff thus during harm to the program; 2) the default does reputational harm, which to a nonprofit is particularly important; 3) the default reduces access to credit for the future. There are also funders who will not fund for debt repayment.

Question from Corine Farnsworth, ABC Kidz Kare, nonprofit:
    I am new to this. Do you have any tips on where/how to find available grants?

Elizabeth C. Sullivan:
    The Foundation Center collects and disseminates information regarding foundation grantmaking. Additionally, the Council on Foundations offers information regarding regional association of grantmakers, some of which also publish information regarding specific corporate, private, community, or family foundations located in your region.

The Chronicle of Philanthropy (the generous sponsor of today's discussion) publishes up to date information regarding the current trends and issues in the field of philanthropy and is often a great place to start for information regarding fund raising.

Question from Jack, awaiting 501 c status.:
    Hello, My question is what type of loans are available for NEW nonprofits? Our plan is to apply for a loan, grants, fundraisers, and etc. What are your insights on these actions? Any information would be greatly appreciated! Thank you,

Clara Miller:
    The truth is, not many...and that's OK. Just like any start-up business, the work in the first few years is to establish a track record, and loans a best used to smooth out bumps in reliable revenue, or spread out the payments for an asset over the time it takes for that asset to product revenue. Thus, startups aren't usually a good match for loans. An exception might be if you have a parent company (or a parent...) who would be willing to fully guarantee the loan with cash. It's not too soon, however, for you to get to know your sources (banks, CDFI's, etc.) and find out what they're looking for.

Question from Nicki Clarke, Capitol Center for the Arts:
    As ticket buyers purchase tickets closer and closer to the day of a show cash flow is becoming a major problem. With tightening credit from banks are there any other sources for short term cash flow loans?

Tom Manning:
    You should try a local community lender for a bridge loan. One resource is the website of the Opportunity Finance Network, which has contact information for its member organizations (community lenders) all over the country.

As a performing arts organization, you also might try the Nonprofit Finance Fund directly, since they are familiar with organizations like yours.

Question from Kristin Marting, HERE Arts Center:
    I've heard more funders are getting interested in joining forces to create larger pools of money for PRI or MRI in response to this economic climate. I've heard about More for Mission - do you know of any other groups forming around this idea?

Clara Miller:
    I know that more foundations are considering PRIs as a way to augment their grantmaking (and possibly because the PRI portfolios look downright profitable these days :-)). Our experience here at NFF with this is in consortia of CDFIs and other community lenders who get together to finance a particular need--one example being community health center receivables in California.

Question from Patricia - w/ a Performing Arts Non Profit:
    Our situation sounds a bit like Trisha's below: we are trying to regroup and raise funds. We have squeaked by for 30 years, but face a decision to either fold or find some funding. We think we provide a great service to our community and don't want to fold. We confess we have had inconsistent and/or dysfunctional management. Do you have any thoughts, suggestions for us? Do you think there is any hope? We have credit card debt (under the name of the artistic director--I gather he took that on when there were periods of no management at all) (I"m new to the group and trying to help!)

Elizabeth C. Sullivan:
    Has the management changed? If not, then it is likely that the difficulties will continue. Is there another organization that is financially stable and well managed that you can partner with - either through a full asset merger (where the current debt may be an issue), or through combining back office operations? In some cases, one organization serves as the management arm of several other organizations, offering management support (financial, development, marketing, ticket sales, business analysis...) to the other organizations on a fee-for-service basis, with each 'tenant' organization retaining its own identity.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Because of the number of questions we've received (and the complexity of the topic), we're going to keep the discussion open for a bit longer to try to accommodate all of those who are awaiting answers. Thanks for sticking around.

Question from Bill Payne, small nonprifit:
    We have some money we will not need to use for the short term. What are the best options for short-term investments with CD rates so low?

Clara Miller:
    That's a high class problem! Full disclosure: I'm a chicken, and not an investment advisor, either. In this environment preserving capital for mission is a good idea. Put it in the bank you have the best relationship with, make sure they're insured by the FDIC and passed whatever stress test they were given, and wait for things to settle down.

Question from tatiana, start-up nonprofit social venture:
    do foundations typically ask for board members to personally guarantee recoverable loans/PRIs?

Elizabeth C. Sullivan:
    It is important to note that PRI practices vary quite a bit, however I am not familiar with foundations that require board members to personally guarantee loans. Any lender will want to determine whether the borrower has the capacity to repay the loan -- but lending is generally attached to the assets of the nonprofit. One of my fellow panelist responded to an earlier question regarding loans or loan guarantees from board members, with the excellent advice that if board members are lending to a nonprofit their loans be fully documented.

Question from Amanda Jones, Out The Boat Ministires, Inc.:
    To clarify: HUD, for example, is great for offering $500K, but they usually want the recipient to match with another $250-500K. Naturally, grants are a #1 priority in this instance, but finding capital grant money is notoriously difficult, even in solid economic times. I understand that some (many?) nonprofits seek out loans and other financial solutions, but like you said, getting a loan would be pretty hard for us. I'm wondering if there are other options (in addition to the usual fundraising campaigns).

Tom Manning:
    I'm not sure there are any other categories out there beyond loans, grants and fundraising campaigns. If you are purchasing the real estate to run a social service program that is funded by a continuing government contract, you may find that a loan is possible.

Question from John, board member:
    What role, if any, does a credit line have in fulfilling a small($500K revenue) nonprofit's liquidity needs? Should we avoid a credit line altogether and only hold our liquidity provision in the form of cash and short-term investments?

Elizabeth C. Sullivan:
    If your organization can hold its liquidity position without incurring the expense of a credit line, then that might be your best option. If not, then you need to carefully evaluate the cost of the credit line over time.

Question from Caliie, small non-profit:
    Is there anything in the government stimulus package(s) regarding philanthropic organizations that is encouraging or has othewise piqued your interest? Thank you.

Clara Miller:
    There's some very encouraging ideas such as the Serve America Act and the Social Innovation Fund, as well as the President's request to double the budget for Community Development Financial Institutions. These, however, must be funded in the budget, and money's tight everywhere. Much of the stimulus will go to preserve existing jobs and to break ground on "shovel ready" projects that put people to work immediately.

Question from John, small nonprofit:
    Do many nonprofits have a debt policy as part of their financial policies? Also, what items should be included in such a policy?

Clara Miller:
    I have heard of nonprofits that have a prohibition of debt as part of their financial policies, and most require board action to approve debt of any kind (or debt that goes beyond a certain level and for certain purposes). Also, lenders often require board action, reporting routines and similar if they lend.

Question from Marion O'Neill, PSEG:
    Can you give some pros and cons of program related investments?

Tom Manning:
    Pros -- As a low-cost source of funds to the recipients, PRIs are very welcome in many circumstances. Since PRIs must be repaid, they are a renewable source of funding; As loans, they can require a greater level of planning and on-going accountability on the part of the recipient than a grant.

Cons -- It is work for the lender up front and over time. Up front, you must do the work to understand how you will be repaid. Over time, you have obligated yourself to keep track of the recipient and get re-paid.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Thank you for joining us today. We are out of time. I hope everyone found this session to be helpful and I invite you to join us again on May 28 at noon Eastern time for the next installment of this live discussion series. We'll be focusing specifically on how arts organizations can weather the financial storm.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    To learn more about this series, go to: http://philanthropy.com/live/recession_series/

You can also learn more about our weekly discussions that are held every Tuesday at noon by going to http://philanthropy.com/live. There, you'll find information about upcoming events and a full archive of transcripts of all of our previous discussions.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    I want to thank all of our guests today for taking the time to answer your questions -- and offer a special thanks to the Nonprofit Finance Fund for co-hosting this series and for helping us provide what we hope is a useful resource to the nonprofit world.