Grooming the Next Generation of Nonprofit Leaders: an Intergenerational Discussion

The nonprofit world is poised for major leadership changes, as the baby boomers who have founded and led so many of the nation's charitable organizations reach retirement age.

But many young nonprofit workers are not so eager to take on leadership duties unless the job of charity executive is refashioned. Many of the most-talented young workers say that they worry that nonprofit leaders' salaries are too low and that they would have to make too many sacrifices to keep their work life in balance with their other activities and obligations.

In an online discussion on June 16, we will explore ways in which today's nonprofit leaders can inspire the next generation and respond to the concerns of younger workers.

Related Articles

What Can Charity Leaders Learn From Their 20-Something Employees(6/3/2009)
The Young and the Restless (2/26/2009)

The Guests

Naomi Christine Leapheart is a financial-literacy instructor at Operation Hope, a Los Angeles organization that aids minorities. She founded the MatchStick Group, a Philadelphia organization that works with young black people who want to become leaders in the business and nonprofit arena. Previously, Ms. Leapheart was a development manager at the Enterprise Center, in Philadelphia.

Eric Stevens is a senior consultant at the Collins Group, a Seattle consulting company that serves nonprofit groups. He focuses on strategic planning, business-plan development, organizational assessments, board development, and capital campaigns. Previously, Mr. Stevens ran the Courage Center, a nonprofit organization in Minneapolis that provides rehabilitation services for people with brain and spinal-cord injuries, stroke, chronic pain, autism, or other disabilities. Mr. Stevens also served as executive director of St. David's Child Development and Family Services, in Minnetonka, Minn.

Robert Egger founded DC Central Kitchen, a food bank and culinary-training center for unemployed people, and he directs the V3 Campaign, a program aimed at giving the nonprofit world a more visible role in public policy. Previously, Mr. Egger founded the Mayor's Commission on Food and Nutrition, Street Sense, a Washington newspaper that covers homelessness, and co-founded the first Nonprofit Congress, an annual national meeting of nonprofit organizations. Mr. Egger wrote the book Begging for Change: The Dollars and Sense of Making Nonprofits Responsive, Efficient and Rewarding For All, and writes a blog at http://www.robertegger.org.

Dave Algoso is co-chair of the Young Nonprofit Professionals Network of DC in Washington, a networking and professional development organization for nonprofit professionals. His past experience includes advocacy roles with environmental organizations and strategy consulting for universities.

A transcript of the chat follows.

Peter Panepento:
Welcome to today's live discussion, which addresses one of the more provocative debates in today's nonprofit world. As the current generation of nonprofit leaders approaches retirement, there is growing concern about how to effectively groom their successors. Many in the nonprofit world are concerned about a talent gap and worry that there are not enough future leaders in the pipeline to steward the sector into the future.

Peter Panepento::
At the same time, many younger professionals have their own concerns. Some younger professionals say they are not taken seriously and that they have ideas that their superiors are unwilling to embrace. There are also concerns that they are not being given the responsibilities and training necessary to help them prepare for leadership.

Peter Panepento::
Our guests today include young professionals and baby boomer-generation leaders. They are:

* Naomi Christine Leapheart, a financial-literacy instructor at Operation Hope, a Los Angeles organization that aids minorities, and founder of the MatchStick Group, a Philadelphia organization that works with young black people who want to become leaders in the business and nonprofit arena.

* Eric Stevens is a senior consultant at the Collins Group, a Seattle consulting company that serves nonprofit groups.

* Robert Egger, founder of DC Central Kitchen, a food bank and culinary-training center for unemployed people, and he directs the V3 Campaign, a program aimed at giving the nonprofit world a more visible role in public policy.

* Dave Algoso, co-chair of the Young Nonprofit Professionals Network of DC, a networking and professional development organization for nonprofit professionals in Washington.

Peter Panepento::
Because of the topic, I'd like today's discussion to veer a bit from its usual question-and-answer formant and invite our participants to chime in not only with questions, but with their comments and ideas. As usual, you are invited to submit questions by clicking on the "ask a question" link and typing in your query. But I also invite participants to use the same tool to offer their own opinions about what you're seeing on this page. If you agree or disagree with one of our guests, please feel free to let us know why and we'll add your thoughts to the discussion.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
Ok, let's get started. This should be a fun and informative discussion.

Question from PZ, mid-sized nonprofit:
In today's nonprofit sector, as in many industries, moving up the ladder requires more advanced academic credentials than in the past - usually at least a Masters degree. These things are expensive! Besides increasing salary, is there anything the sector can do to help ease the discouraging burden of student debt?

Robert Egger:
Advanced degrees are cool, but as Bob Dylan once sang "they don't teach you nothing in school you can't learn on the street".

Look...advanced degrees are cool, but experience is what most lack...not paper. I would urge you under-grads to really sink your teeth into a cool nonprofit and take a solid 5-6 year ride, THEN consider an advanced degree--maybe even at night, locally, when you have a more solid view of the road ahead.

They key is finding a spot that will give you a solid 5-6 ride. I'd suggest that you "co-interview" prospective nonprofit employers to see which group has the most invested in transparency and outcome measurements (which will be the key to just about all future funding) as well as modest pay gap between highest and lowest employees, and/or that offers opngoing education support to its staff.

Finally...ask how often the CEO meets with young/old/ALL employees to discuss the shared path. The first few years should be about LEARNING. You want to work for a group that teaches you AND rocks a mission. The more you learn in these key years, the less you'll be tricked into thinking you need to pay big money for another piece of paper.

But I also think we should be using sector wide might in advocating for a significant boost in the reductions of student debt for grads who work in service.

Naomi Christine Leapheart:
Hello everyone! I‚Äôm a Gen Y nonprofit professional based in Philadelphia. I wear several different hats: nonprofit founder, entrepreneur/consultant, and board member. I‚Äôm working to launch the MatchStick Group, an agency that empowers young African-Americans to "benevolent leadership." In my consultant role, I help individuals, nonprofits, and small businesses effectively communicate the right message to the right people. I‚Äôm also privileged to serve as the board president of Philadelphia‚Äôs Young Nonprofit Leaders, a nonprofit organization that expands the knowledge, skills, and network of professionals working in and for the nonprofit sector. I‚Äôm honored to share with you today and look forward to our dialogue!

Question from Nicole Watson, OneStar Foundation:
How willing do you think nonprofits are to change their ways to recruit the next generation of leaders? And is raising salaries enough to get them in the door?

Eric Stevens:
Non-profit leaders and boards, if they are going to thrive long-term, MUST come to terms with succession planning and recruiting/promoting a next generation of leaders. Some boards and leaders will be proactive about this, others will languish. Some "old-timers" will hold on and resist this, unfortunately.

Salaries alone will not do it. It requires giving people positions with meaningful responsbilities, significant support for advanced training, ongoing coaching and feedback, opportunities to interface with board and community leaders, and ultimately opportunities for advancement.

Question from Tony Bowen, Grantmakers for Effective Organizations/GuideStar/IUPUI:
We often hear about the next generation of nonprofit leaders in terms of the nonprofit side, not the foundation side. How can foundations help groom the next generation of their leaders?

Eric Stevens:
Talented, well trained and dedicated young people ARE working in both the non-profit and foundation sectors today. What they may lack is the kind of high level management experience to enable them to eventually assume higher leadership roles. So, groom the next generation of leaders by giving them real and meaningful responsibilities, provide them with coaching and feedback, and promote those who display strong leadership and outstanding judgment.

Question from Allison Jones, OnlyUp :
Do you see intergenerational conflict in the work place? If so, why do you think such a conflict exists and what is it about?

Robert Egger:
What's going on is a transition from the founding generation to the next. There is a predictable conflict when two different points of view are forced to find common ground. We must understand, and this is huge, its not normal to give up power, and we haven't helped the founding generation learn how to let go or share decison making practices. I'm going to advocate over and over that the greatest need is to foster robust internal dialogue within each organization to redefine how decisions are made.

Eric Stevens:
I really agree with Robert - it is about gaining EXPERIENCE. AND as he suggested, organizations need to be more horizontal - so that the CEO invites younger people to be part of the organizational dialogue - and he/she doesn't just talk with his/her upper management folks. Younger folks provide an important ear-to-the-ground perspective.

Comment from PZ, mid-sized nonprofit:
Sorry Robert, I disagree with your statement that degrees are unnecessary. My local food bank recently posted an entry-level position, and nearly all the replies came from people with advanced degrees. I've done a fair amount of hiring in the nonprofit world myself, and every year the applicants have come in loaded up with more academic experience. Ask your HR person - to stand out in a crowd of resumes today, an advanced degree is necessary in a way it wasn't when you started this work.

Question from Tim:
As a junior NPO staffer, I'm discouraged by the lack of career opportunities since upper-level executives either never leave their jobs or simply rotate from one institution to another. What can NPOs do to provide a viable career ladder for future leaders? Please provide specific examples and advice.

Dave Algoso:
Tim, great question! I know many people who face this. A lot of senior leaders know that they should be providing a ladder but don't know how. The most important thing is to provide opportunities for young staff to develop and build their skills so they'll be ready to take on leadership roles when they open up.

This is a lot easier for an organization that's growing - new programs, sites, etc will create opportunities for leadership development and even new leadership roles. Instead of bringing in outside talent, the org should consider promoting from within, even if it's a stretch assignment for the young staffer. Orgs that aren't growing have to be more creative. If there's a one-time special project, that could be a great way to build someone's skills. Even rotating assignments/responsibilities can create new experiences for young staff. Finally, senior leaders should be accepting or even *supportive* of young staff moving laterally/diagonally (up and over) to other organizations. If there's no room for growth in this org, the whole sector will be better off if that staff person moves, rather than grows stagnat.

Question from Allison Jones, OnlyUp :
Can you recommend any good books or studies that discuss how young people view and work in the sector?

Naomi Christine Leapheart:
Hi Allison!

Several progressive organizations have come together to publish studies on next gen nonprofit leadership. Some excellent ones include:

Up Next -- a study of generation change and nonprofit leadership by the Annie E. Casey Foundation Ready to Lead -- a study that showcases the voices of next generation nonprofit leaders by Idealist.org, the Casey Foundation, the Meyer Foundation, and CompassPoint Next Generation and Governance -- a report on how nonprofits can engage young professionals in board service by BoardSource

If you connect with me, I can email you each. Or, you can google them too. Naomi@matchstickgroup.org

I also highly recommend the new book Working Across Geneartions: Defining the Future of Nonprofit Leadership, a publication of the Building Movement Project (www.buildingmovement.org). It's a comprehensive blend of research and tactical strategies that help nonprofits navigate 4-generation leadership dynamics in their organizations!

Comment from Dee, Arts Extension Service, UMass:
RE: PZ, mid-sized nonprofit:

Degrees matter, but so does experience and quality training. What happens when you have a Masters but still don't have the needed information? We (as do other institutions) offer both degrees and certificates using case study organizations, all aimed to give people the information and experience they need to do the work. In the end, supporting our students and their nonprofits is the goal.

Robert Egger:
What i learned most in my dialogue with the "twenty-somthings" last week at the Kitchen, and in subsequent conversations, was the reality of the debt-load many are carrying, particulary student loans. This demands that the sector realistically review starting salaries. More importantly, for the foundation community to re-evaluate its grantmaking process and give grantees more latitude in their pay scale. This will also be boosted as groups like The Alliance for Effective Social Investing (which includes leaders from Guidestar, Charity Navigaotr, and the Wise Giving Alliance), working with others, redefines metrics to briskly move away from low admistratvie overhead, which is nothing more than an antiquated notion of efficiency.

Question from Allison Jones, OnlyUp :
What are some best practices employers are using that are helping young people stay and enjoy their time in the sector?

Eric Stevens:
Best practices to help young people stay and enjoy the sector:

1. Give people meaningful responsibility with a degree of authority/decision making

2. Provide regular and ongoing feedback and coaching

3. Send people to conferences and workshops where they can learn best practices and network with others

4. Encourage people to be creative and learn from their successes and mistakes

5. Encourage a team approach - where people within the organization can learn from one another

Question from Angela DuRoss, Arden Theatre Company:
What are some things that young leaders can do to better position themselves in the non-profit community?

Naomi Christine Leapheart:
There's so much power in simply knowing exactly what you'd like to being doing. I recommend that young leaders do some reflection to get clearer about where they'd like to be positioned -- is it as an executive? at what kind of organization? how do you want to be spending your day? Once you're sure about that, it's much easier to then chart the corresponding path.

Then, I think young leaders need to place themselves inside important conversations. If you notice that there's no young voice on that planning committee or on that conference roster, speak up and then step up! I've found that the nonprofit community wants us involved, but we're all a little afraid to start the actual conversation.

Lastly, I'd recommend that young nonprofit leaders join affinity groups like Young Nonprofit Professionals Network (www.ynpn.org) or Emerging Practitioners in Philanthropy (www.epip.org). This helps provide a support system and referral network. And, the larger community looks to those groups for referrals and leadership.

Comment from Denise Beek, Greater Philadelphia Film Office:
Efforts to create a comfortable space within the workplace can encourage employees to share ideas and can open the channels for dialogue and conflict resolution when a generational gap is the issue. Maybe non-profits can make it a priority to engage in off-site activities that help break the barriers between its seasoned employees and its young professionals. Both can benefit from the cultural exchange.

Dave Algoso:
Hello all! I forgot to introduce myself. With 6 years in the workforce, I am squarely in the "young nonprofit worker" camp. I've thought a great deal about the future of the nonprofit sector, management and accountability in mission-driven organizations, professional development and career paths (including my own!). I've been excited to apply much of this to my work with the Young Nonprofit Professionals Network of DC. Looking forward to answering your questions!

Comment from Halona Agouda, Beyond Talent:
I think degrees are a "permission slip" that say a person has a minimum of qualifications -- what those qualifications are can vary from person to person. Also, we must remember that racism and sexism still exist. I am African American and work in adult ed and workforce development and in some circles of well educated, mostly white professionals, no one is interested in hearing what I have to say until they learn I am a doctoral student. That doesn't mean that everyone should have a doctorate, it just means that for people of color, you still need to have more qualifications AND experience in order to be taken seriously.

Naomi Christine Leapheart:
To Tim's question about career ladders within organizations: I think that nonprofits can be a lot more deliberate here. I think creating a team-based structure can ease the cross-generational tension that exists when there's a hierarchical structure. For example, nonprofits can organize tasks around teams, not positions or departments. This way, program people get to work with development folks and vice versa. I think this definitely works with special projects, but it can also work with larger areas like communications and program evaluation. Everybody learns from everybody, and senior leaders get the chance to see what the younger professionals are able to do -- making it even easier to promote them when the time comes.

Question from DK from Dupont Circle - Washington, DC:
Can you talk about the relevance of policy and non-profit involvement in the political process as a function of the "leadership vaccuum" and upcoming policy shifts happening with the new economic challenges we're facing right now and in the immediate future?

Robert Egger:
For a younger generation to redesign the "nonprofit experiment" so that it speaks more to their economic, political, and social concerns then there is no choice but to become more involved in the political process. Simply put, we must elect and entire new generation of leaders, which can include some of you, who understand the role that nonprofits play now, but more importantly recognize its potential to be a major new economic force not just in America but around the world. That's what the V3 Campaign is about, and I hope everyone interested in change will consider joining.

Comment from Robin, CA nonprofit:
Re: are advanced degrees necessary I think the surplus of advanced degrees has more to do with the unemployment rate and large number of people studying than it does with the needs of actual non-profit positions, especially entry level positions. I'd rather hire someone with three years work experience than three years in grad school.

Question from Colleen Dilenschneider, Public Admin- Nonprofit Mgmt grad student:
I'm reading a lot about what institutions can do to tighten the gap and create a more functional partnership between generations. What are your words of wisdom to the next generation hoping to join this team? What do you advise we take into account?

Eric Stevens:
As a former CEO, I strongly urge younger folks to take initiative and not just wait for management to notice you.

Make constructive suggestions to management. Demonstrate your good ideas, AND your good work. Disagree (respectfully) with leaders and offer alternative ideas. Document both progress and challenges you are facing (and how the organization might deal with them.

Personally, I prefer smarts, energy and initiative to age (and I'm 62!). In organizations that I've led, younger people who did these things were noticed, given more responsibility, included in more organizational dialogues and looked at for promotions.

Question from CBehal, unemployed:
What do you think are the opportunities/chances that young nonprofit workers could unionize?

Dave Algoso:
I think it'd be tough. Obviously many nonprofit employees are supportive of unionization in general, but nonprofit organizations tend to be smaller than major corporations. It's much easier to unionize and negotiate with a few large employers than many smaller ones. Also, it's a lot easier to rally workers against a faceless corporation than against their local charity org. Who wants to picket a foodbank? I'm not sure how much support there would be for unionization given workers heartfelt dedication to their organizations' missions.

Some nonprofits do have unions, but I think they tend to be special cases (universities, hospitals, etc).

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
We're getting some great conversation here. Thanks to those who are asking questions and sharing thoughts. We have room for more, so please don't hesitate to join the discussion. To ask a question or share your thoughts, simply click on the "ask a question" link and type away.

Question from Peter Panepento:
Robert, do you feel like enough of the robust internal conversations are taking place? And is the current crop of leaders unwilling to have these discussions?

Robert Egger:
NO, there isn't enough dialogue happening. But its not because these leaders are bad, or dumb... again, letting go is hard, it has to be learned/taught. This is why I advocate that at every conference or convening organizers set aside time to teach older leaders how to loosen the grip, and a younger generation how to be prepared for the long race. I saw this at the North Carolina and Hawaii Associations of Nonprofits gatherings, and it was really exciting to witness.

While I have this... realize that retirement is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. Fewer leaders will be able to afford to step aside. This mandates dialogue. Don't go to any conference that does not offer this kind of opportunity. And politely reach out to the CEO of your organization and ask for a similar opportunity internally. it will only make the organization stronger/faster/better.

Question from Tamara - small animal-related nonprofit foundation:
I lucked into a great job with a nonprofit/foundation, and I think it suits me better than any job I've ever had, but it wasn't something I was actively seeking. How do you think nonprofits/foundations can help qualified candidates look at the nonprofit world as a viable employment option?

Eric Stevens:
Congratulations Tamara and good luck to you in your new job.

I think non-profits and foundations need to continue to do a better job in refining their messaging. They need to clearly spell out both the job responsibilities and the OUTCOMES they are trying to achieve through their organization and the position. Too many non-profits are still stuck in defining both what THEY do and JOB ANNOUNCEMENTS in terms of activities and tasks versus the END RESULTS they are trying to achieve. People get more excited about VISION and GOALS.

I also think that non-profits need to think more extensively about career advancement - in today's world, people aren't go to stay for 10 or 20 years or more out of loyalty.

I do see many non-profits moving more in these directions, and it is refreshing, but there is a ways to go.

Question from Peter Panepento:
David, are you finding that members of the YNPN network in DC are having a harder time finding opportunities in the current job market? Is the recession further complicating the succession issue?

Dave Algoso:
I was talking to a hiring manager from a local education org the other week - she posted a job advertisement and got over 100 resumes! It's definitely harder to find a job right now. But it's not impossible. I know several people who have started new jobs in the last few weeks. DC has been luckier than some parts of the country; the heavy influence of government spending has cushioned the economic blow here. As for the succession issue, the question there is always whether the organization has planned for it. If they have someone from within the org ready to step up, and then bump someone else up into that vacated job, eventually it creates a job lower in the organization for a young professional. However if they look for someone from outside the org or even outside the sector, everyone further down stays where they are.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
I'm curious to hear how those who are searching for new positions now are faring? Is it getting harder to make a career move in this economy? Please feel free to share your experiences.

Question from Peter Panepento:
Robert, does the idea of rethinking salaries for younger workers further hurt smaller organizations, which typically have a lot less money? Would this lead to more of the talent sticking with larger, more established groups?

Robert Egger:
I'll come back again and again to public understanding and foundation giving.

One example to consider... Starbucks. They convinced America that it was a VALUE to spend $4 for a cup of coffee. We need to train all Americans to recognize that the era of "cheap charity" has passed. I don't mean to demean any efforts heretofore, but there is no indication that our strategy has yielded the kind of change we ALL seek. That means all communication to the public needs to now reflect outcome measurements, economic impact, or flat out logic to rob them of the canard that they can get social change for nuthin. We have to make the case that this is SMART, and GOOD.

So young people, while you are talking to the elders in your organization or association, help them understand the power of language, and make sure to buffer your arguements for new direction with solid economic indicators that the public will applaud.

Question from Marlo, Public Television:
What reccomendations would you make to someone who has 12 years of experience in non-profit, but not at the senior level yet and cant seem to break through the age glass ceiling. How do you overcome the age factor when your mid-career and still young? In this case would an advance degree be warranted? What about CFRE?

Eric Stevens:
Great question, Marlo. 12 years of experience is awesome. If you are not breaking through in your own organization, I'd get some feedback from people who know you who you trust. How do they see your skills? What parts of your skills do you need to develop further? What would it take for you to advance? Will those opportunities be available to you in your current organization. All of this is to help YOU get CLEAR on where you are and what are possible next steps for you.

THEN, I'd develop your own "career plan" that might involve a combination of advanced training, taking on new responsibilities and initiative in your current job AND/OR thinking about looking elsewhere. I do think some organizations OVERLOOK their own - you may be able to go to a smaller organization elsewhere and with your experience, step in at a higher level. By going to another organzation, you also learn how to work in a different culture -it can help broaden you. I've seen people leave an organization I've led, gotten good experience elsewhere, and then come back into a higher position in my organization.

Comment from Dee, Arts Extension Service:
The bad economy is also making room for opportunity. Assuming one has a job.

Every organization is trying to do more with less, and are looking at staff as their most important asset. Making yourself THE person with the ideas, willing to try new things, and being capable of delivering is a great way to move ahead, even if it is within an organization.

If you don't have a job, volunteering is another means of gaining experience, running a committee, being on a board. It all adds to the resume.

Being "young" means having a different perspective, a fresh look, and the courage to see that there may be another way. Use that.

Question from SarahR:
How can seasoned employees who are resistant to change be encouraged to take more responsibility for succession planning?

Robert Egger:
So far so much of this discussion about transitional leadership has been academic and easily delayed.

Mark my words, the economic reality is that just about every state will post a deficit for 2010, and most likely 2011 as well. This will force every group to re-evaluate its internal structure/decision making process, it's communications/fundraising strategies, and (I pray) their attitude about advocacy and their need to be involved in the political process.

In 2010, 36 states will be choosing new Governors. This is the arena in which we must be active and where we can most likely influence the public's attitude about the powerful role we already play in every town in America.

Young people, particularly those who cut their teeth in last year's Presidential election, this will be your time to redesign the sector... stand ready.

Question from Steven Fynes Philadelphia's Young Nonprofit Leaders (PYNL):
Whats your advice on dealing with nonprofit leaders (Executive Directors and such) not willing to acknowledge or play a part in the important role that future leaders have in our society?

Naomi Christine Leapheart:
Hi Steve!

I think that peer pressure can be a positive thing! There are progressively-minded EDs and senior staff in the sector, and I think part of our strategy as young leaders has to be getting THEM to discuss this with the not-so-progressive execs. Young leaders can take advantage of this increasing need/interest in developing next gen leadership by convening such dialogues.

I think more personally, if you're working with an ED who's not interested in cultivating new leadership, remember that we all ultimately want the sector to succeed. Us next-gens need to keep the conversation about sector sustainability and not personalities or job positions. When we contextualize it that way, maybe older leaders can hear us better.

Question from Robin, CA nonprofit:
Do you have suggestions for helping founders who know that they need to be building the bench strength in their middle managers to deal with the fear that they're becoming old and irrelevant and that their experience is no longer useful or desired?

Eric Stevens:
Being my age (62), I love this question. I consult and coach with a number of such leaders and founders, and yes, you are correct, some (not all) are resistant and reluctant to "let go." These types of managers perhaps all along have had problems with delegation.

The ideal leader recognizes that his/her status and power actually is elevated by empowering others and sharing responsibility. I had to learn that lesson myself and it was a critical lesson to learn.

People within the organization AND hopefully the board MUST help that leader understand that building bench strength is what will keep the organization vital. As a best practice, I think boards need to REQUIRE succession planning and monitor an executive's delegation practices. For example, boards must ask that multiple staff report at board meetings, not just the ED/CEO.

Yes, we do become old. But cultivating strong leadership behind us IS what prevents us from becoming irrelevant. Leaders who don't do that will LOSE talented people and sooner or later WILL and perhaps SHOULD be forced out by their boards.

Question from John, Higher Education Association:
I like what Robert Egger was getting at in regards to looking to do 5-6 years of nonprofit work before starting an advanced degree, but what if you have been in a work environment for just over 2 years with opportunities for professional development but virtually no mentoring or avenues for advancement offered? Is this a good time to go to grad school full time/part time or to look for another nonprofit to work for? Of course being a hard time to start a new job I feel my options are limited. Thanks in advance for any advice anyone can offer!

Dave Algoso:
John, I was in pretty much that same spot 3 years ago. I decided to wait and am starting an MPA program this fall (with 6 years of experience). My reasoning was that I'd get more out of the degree by getting a few more years of experience. Of course, that depends on what kind of degree you want, your sub-field, etc. I would suggest first having a conversation with your boss about what you're looking for. S/he has been where you are and might be able to give some good advice specific to your field. If that doesn't open up opportunities, start looking at other orgs and degree programs. It's a hard time to find new jobs but it's also a hard time to apply to schools! So if you an work something out at your current org, you'll be much better off. Also, my 2 cents on professional development: if you have no mentoring or avenues for advancement, your professional development is incomplete. Don't get me wrong - YNPNdc does a lot of workshops and they're quite good (if I do say so myself) - but you really need those other components.

Question from Kathy Davanzo, Pelorus Leadership:
How will the leadership behavior of young professionals differ from that of baby boomers and traditionalists?

Naomi Christine Leapheart:
Much of the research suggests that young professionals want to be extended trust from the start -- not after they rise to titled positions of authority. They want more flexible leadership paradigms that allow them to experience the responsibility of leadership even in their non-senior roles -- like job shadowing or project management. They're willing to lead by trying, not afraid to make mistakes and very equipped to adjust when necessary. Ready to Lead, the study I referenced earlier, says a lot more about this.

Question from Dee, Arts Extension Service:
Robert, Do you see any shift in Foundation giving to support increased salaries?

Robert Egger:
I think the advent of donor advise funds and family foundations will bring with it a new generation of philanthropists, often social entrepreneurs themselves who understand the need to retain management, support research and development, and participate in advocacy.

But don't forget that most of the money comes from the federal or local governement contracts, or Joe and Jane Q. Public. This is why advocacy and a new communications strategy geared to changing public and political understanding of the sector's value offers the most promise to a wage scale that would let your generation dig in and roar.

Question from Tracy Tran, Independent Recruiter for Nonprofits:
I understand advance degrees would catch someone's attention, but I'm wondering with today's technology with all the information is out there and conversation a bit easier with blogs, Twitter, Wikipedia, and others, would an advance degree be necessary since if they are still learning through writing and reading blogs or any source?

Eric Stevens:
The advantages of an advanced degree are twofold: 1) the status it confers and 2) the structured learning experience it provides. A good degree program requires students to gain in-depth knowledge, especially through experiential projects.

Demonstrating social networking proficiency certainly can show that a person is "up to date" with this particular trend. But I'd rather hire a person who has done extensive volunteer work or an internship where they've had real experience and "cut their teeth."

I also think that its not just the experience, but what you've learned and how you've changed through that experience that is important to convey to prospective employees.

Comment from Karyn Brianne Watkins, Marketing Professional/Writer:
After 3 years, I left corporate America to move into nonprofit marketing/events. However now, that I'm officially kicking my NPO job search into gear, I'm finding that most of my opportunities are coming from for-profit companies with a philanthropic arm/corporate foundation. It's difficult to find great marketing opportunities with NPOs because they usually only reserve 1-2 senior level spots for that function.

I wonder if any other young corporate America expats had the same issue...

Question from Samuel Richard, Arizona State University:
Who is responsible for what regarding intergenerational dialogs?

In other words, when does advice become proselytizing for more seasoned professionals and when does listening become passivity for younger professionals? Understanding that all parties involved carry equal burden to behave appropriately, I would love to hear your thoughts on exactly which parts of the relationship/transition each generation is responsible for. Thanks!

Eric Stevens:
Openness to mature learning conversations is the responsibility of both seasoned professionals and younger professionals. Both have to be open to listening and learning. Obviously, the people in management hold more power (to hire and fire), so there is some added responsibility on the younger generation to think intelligently about the question "how do I best influence this particular person or group of leaders higher up?" On the other hand, a strong leader and HR group in an organization would encourage opportunities.

Comment from Dee, Arts Extension Service, UMass:
Re: Mentoring/ Advanced degrees

Mentor programs exist. Many in the later part of their career or even retirees want to remain useful and connected. Seek them out. My sister works in the DC area, her mentor has been invaluable for opening doors for her job search.

Not to beat this too often: Many of our Certificate Students come to us because they've hit a wall. They simply need more information and want to learn how to do something, like create a strategic plan, marketing plan, learn to do real, honest program evaluation so they can thoughfully close/expand programs.

Education is for the student, and for the organization. Many organizaitons will pay for the tuition if they can get the benefit of a final plan, or the assurance that their worker will really be able to solve an ongoing problem by learning how.

Question from First Teacher:
I am in a position at a nonprofit where everything I was hired to do has not worked out. One training program has been put on hold due to lack of funding and other programs are not functioning and will not be able to function because of lack of organization. In the meantime, I am working on small, disconnected projects that don't amount to much. I feel like I have a lot more to offer, however I don't feel like my directors have much vision for what our program is supposed to accomplish. I've been in the position for about 10 months now and my patience is wearing thin. I am seeking other opportunities, but hate to be labeled a job hopper. Should I stick this job out for 2 years to see if it gets better, or take the next opportunity that comes along?

Naomi Christine Leapheart:
I'm probably on the margins in my views about job longevity. You can't get those 10 months back...so I do think you're right to at least be thinking about making a transition. BUT, first ask yourself, have you done all you can to mold your current role into something that is both valuable to the organization and personally satisfying?

I think you should articulate to your directors your ideas about what would improve your organization's programming. Concretely outline the gaps you've identified and suggest solutions. Then, you take the leadership in implementing your suggestions! It's a wonderful skill to have to be able to sharpen, tighten, and clean up a less-than-perfect- situation. This may be your opportunity! If your management isn't amenable to this, then I certainly think you should keep your eyes open for other places you can grow and learn.

Comment from Amber Martinez, ALPFA/ YNPNLA:
Have you or anyone seen/facilitated conversations between ALL generations, not just Boomer/Gen Y?

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
Those in the audience are invited to share answers to this question. As the editor who organizes these discussions (and a member of Generation X), we'd be happy to expand the conversation to others in a future session if you think there would be interest.

Question from Allison Jones, OnlyUp :
Adding on to CBehal's question, what are some alternatives that young people have to unionizing in order to ensure they get what they need as employees?

Robert Egger:
The V3 Campaign isn't about unionizing, but it sure as heck is about speaking with one voice, which is the only way we will move forward as a sector. In all my travels I've seen many issues that bind us together but none more potent than the reality of our currect economic role.

Never forget, we are the economic equivalent of India and major employers in every city. We should never elect anyone, from the smallest town mayor (and there are 400 races this Fall) to the President of the United States, who cannot fully articulate their vision for how they would partner with the nonprofit sector. To me that's the fastest way to get the sector to the point where we are taking full advantage of every employee, volunteer, or funder's energy and ideas.

Question from :
What are the most important things for young professionals to understand when entering the nonprofit sector?

Dave Algoso:
1. The nonprofit sector is huge. There's a range of jobs (admin, fundraising, events, programs, IT, etc) and subfields (arts, education, environment, etc). So it's about finding the right fit. If you're just entering the workforce or newly transitioning to the sector, it's okay if you don't quite know where you fit. As you gain experience you'll be able to refine your criteria while also building skills that are valuable to potential employers.

2. You might get frustrated at times. But that's not unique to the nonprofit sector. All work is frustrating at times - that's why it's called work!

3. I'd like to see the sector get better about compensation, but you'll inevitably be paid less than your friends who went into the corporate world. Some people consider this a sacrifice. I don't. A sacrifice would be working on issues I don't care deeply about - in which case the corporate world had better pay me a premium for it.

Question from Miller, industry environmental:
I am very interested in changing from working in corporate to non-profit but most jobs I see listed and people I speak with need a lot of non-profit experience. What suggestions do you have for me to make that transition. I have a lot of volunteer experience.

Eric Stevens:
Miller - I'd keep at it and not give up if this is your goal.

But you may need to continue and diversity your volunteer work and particularly expand your networking with non-profit folks, so you begin to talk their language more. Also, see if some people you know can open the doors for exploratory interviews.

Question from GB, young pro at NYC non-profit:
NP professional with 3 yrs experience. With non-profits going into salary freeze/professional development budget freeze-mode, what low/no cost opportunities and benefits should young professionals be asking for as they hope to advance in their organizations?

Eric Stevens:
At least some budget for training and time-off to attend conferences.

Also, ask for special projects where you can take on special responsibilities and demonstrate initiative and thoughtful work, beyond your regular duties.

Question from Lora, Non-profit Consulting:
We're finding that this issue of succession is just as important in board/volunteer development as it is in staff. A lot of boards aren't taking the time to cultivate younger members for leadership/major fundraising roles. Are you seeing similar trends?

Eric Stevens:
I absolutely agree, Lora, this is an important issue for boards. They SHOULD be cultivating/recruiting younger leaders for board committees and board positions as well as encouraging succession planning within the staff.

I don't know if BoardSource has identified this as an important issue - if they haven't they should.

Comment from Kathy Davanzo:
In response to Amber Martinez

Michele Norris with Navigens (mln719@tampabay.rr.com) does cross generational mentoring programs and leads cross generational discussions.

Robert Egger:
To Amber's questions about ALL generations...

I'm so glad you asked, because the Xers just froth at the notion that they are stuck in the middle, because they have put in often decades of hard, disciplined, focused work and their opinions are just as valuable and needed as mine and yours. Again, this is why I suggest that every organization, every meeting, include an open discussion which might be facilitated, to help organizations struggle through the process of redefining leadership, whether in the nonprofit, for profit, or political sectors.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
If you're enjoying this discussion, please note that we have transcripts to more than 100 previous discussions available at your convenience at http://philanthropy.com/live. You'll also find information there about some of our upcoming events.

Question from Joel Newman, Big Brothers Big Sisters:
I'm interested in your thoughts on transitioning from one aspect of an organization to another. I currently hold a program position, but I would like to move into development where it seems most of the opportunities arise and where leaders are groomed.

I don't have fundraising experience, so I was wondering what suggestions you have for a young non-profit professional trying to make that move.

Eric Stevens:
If I were still in management, these are some things I'd look for:

- Have you demonstrated a strong ability to network and build relationships in the community to strengthen your program's connection to the community?

- Have you helped to write or edit grant proposals, in partnership with your organization's development department, to help raise funds for your program?

- Are you able to communicate clearly and effectively regarding your program's benefits to the community, why it is important, the outcomes you are achieving?

- Do you take initiative at staff meetings and other forums to promote new ideas?

I'd also talk to management or HR or the head of development, express your interest, and find out from THEM what they would like to see you demonstrate in your current job to prepare you for a development role.

Finally, I'd start attending AFP and NDOA conferences and consider some advanced training in development if you are serious about moving in this direction. Your program experience would give you an awesome platform.

Good luck.

Question from Amber Martinez, ALPFA/ YNPN LA:
As a young nonprofit professional, I spend a lot of my time and energy trying to build my "toolkit", gaining experience and knowledge in as many different areas as possible. I hear many emerging leaders say they sometimes feel like we are stretched an "inch deep and a mile wide." Are we more marketable as experts in one area or more "well-rounded"?

Dave Algoso:
Amber, my answer might be unsatisfying: it depends. In fact it seems to me that it changes over the course of a career. At the beginning you're asked to do everything (the job title is typically "program associate"), in the middle you're asked to specialize, and then as you become a senior leader you have to be a generalist again. That actually makes a lot of sense to me, even though it can be frustrating. It's important to understand all the different areas when you start out, so that you can decide where you best fit. Then orgs need you to move into a specialization role for classic economic reasons: specialization leads to expertise, which means you get good at doing one thing (e.g. fundraising). Finally you become a senior leader and need to keep tabs on everything from budgets to fundraising to staff management - so you need to be a generalist again. At any given point in your career, you have to ask yourself where you want to eventually end up and which next step is most likely to get you there. That might mean another generalist role so that you can build content knowledge, or marketing yourself as an expert so you can move up. If I had to pick one way to market myself, it would be: an expert in X who also has basic familiarity with everything else. But really, there's no one answer. I hope these considerations are helpful.

Comment from Dee, AES, UMass Amherst:
RE: What to understand when entering the nonprofit sector?

It is all about mission. If you care, if you can contribute in a positive way, if you can‚Äôt wait to go to work in the morning or don‚Äôt notice that it is 6 pm and you are still happily seated at your desk, then you are ‚Äòhome‚Äô. It can be that good.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
We have a few more questions, so we'll keep the discussion open for a bit longer so we can get to all of the queries that came in. Thanks.

Question from Charise, small nonprofit:
Any thoughts on gender-based challenges of young nonprofit leaders have or may face? Curious to know if there are any studies out there or if it's simply a matter of leadership style.

Context: Over the past five years I've noticed a talented handful of young female Executive Directors transition out of their roles. I have not observed such a high degree of turnover with young, male ED's who sometimes possess less experience, vision, and talent. It seems as though some of this may have been due to the lack of encouragement and trust provided to the female EDs by their board of directors and/or funders as they did not leave solely for personal reasons (eg: desire to start a family).

Naomi Christine Leapheart:
I recently read a 2002 report by Compass Point on Women of Color in Leadership. While it tackles both race and gender dynamics in leadership development, I think its helpful to for some context about what other women are saying about leadership in the sector. That said, the women in that study weren't necessarily next gen; there isn't much research about how the additional categories of race and gender complicate this next gen conversation.

I do think that the nonprofit sector faces the same challenges you might see in the private sector. I was just part of a retreat this weekend where we discussed how we in the nonprofit sector need to have the same conversations about workplace equity and diversity that members of corporate America have. We also need to create groups of support for women and leaders of color so we learn from each other and can challenge partriarchial oppression together.

Question from Danielle Stollak, masters student:
I was interested how this discussion was originally framed. As a young person who has worked in non-profits, I find it somewhat insulting that money is the supposed reason new leadership is not taking over the non-profit world. The road blocks I have faced have dealt much more with lack of experience in the sector, then whether or not I am willing to live on little. Would a non-profit seriously consider hiring a recent graduate with little working experience who is geared up to be a next-gen leader over someone who has been working the field for at least 15 years (might be a little worn down, but still trooping)? How can non-profits make the mental shift that it is important to have a place for young leaders on their staff? (Sorry if this question is redundant, I feel like the forum is moving quite fast now)

Robert Egger:
There isn't a nonprofit who hasn't benefitted from the millions of high school and college graduates who have been volunteering since they were young. I think a wise nonprofit would consider having a young professional's voice on their board who could help them understand how to best reach out and take advantage of this upcoming generation.

For all you older leaders, hiring young people or broadening the voice of your board isn't just about giving token seats or gestures to appease young workers. These are you funders of the future. These are the politicians who will be making the new rules.

The smartest organization listens now and adapts. Those that do not run the risk of becoming one of the many nonprofits who are predictably going to wither due to the upcoming economic upheaval.

This is business, folks. And smart business at that.

Eric Stevens:
I want to add something about the non-profit sector to Dave's comments. It is diverse. In particular, the sector has a wide range of organizations from large and very established to small and very grass roots and everything in between. Larger organizations DO tend to have a more formal career track, more opportunities for advancement and higher pay. It is not unusual for non-profit executives in these organizations to make $100,000 and more.

Smaller organizations afford more opportunity for flexibility, freedom and greater entrepreneurship. A person who is successful in helping a smaller organization grow can either build their own career within that organization as it continues to grows, or leap to an larger organization at higher pay, having demonstrated their "worth."

Robert Egger:
Hey Eric... I am speaking at a Compass Point/BoardSource conference in San Fran later in the year... I'll definitely talk about the need for younger board members. In fact, I'll bring it up everywhere I go.

Eric Stevens:
My final comment - building on Dee's comments from Amherst. YES - the ultimate draw of the sector is the mission and desire to make a difference in a way that the business sector doesn't provide. If THAT turns you on -- then and you can find meaningful work, then you've arrived HOME. But from there, it still is a career, and continued on the job learning, advanced training and personal maturing help you advance in your career. The thing I'd add to the discussion is SEEK MENTORS. Find 3-4 people, regardless of age, whose wisdom and counsel you trust and continue to seek them out to learn and use them as mirrors for yourself in your own journey.

Question from Colleen Dilenschneider, Public Admin- Nonprofit Mgmt grad student:
How, would you say, is the young nonprofit leader different from the young for-profit leader? Is this difference important and what roles do you think this may play in recruiting the next generation of leaders?

Naomi Christine Leapheart:
Well, I think that the differences are rooted in our professional cultivation. While I do think that we're all leaders in our own capacities, our training shapes HOW we actually lead. So when we see differences in young for- and non-profit leaders, we're more likely seeing differences in learned behaviors, not in actual leadership potential/ability. That said, I think we should keep these training differences in mind -- a lot has been said about academic qualifications vs. experience, etc., and I think we can sometimes create false dichomoties that don't make practical sense. Also, the for-profit sector has created pathways to leadership that are in many ways clearer than those within the nonprofit sector. So for-profit young leaders might be better positioned to actually get to "practice" leadership and be recognized for it. When your positioned to lead, you're just more likely to take the risk to do so.

Robert Egger:
For those of you all interested in the gender issue, I've spent the past year mulling over the evolution of the sector, and how a generation of bold women in the 1970s took what was a relatively small number of nonprofits in the 70s and turned it into the bold sector it is today. I wrote about the gender biases that framed the founding of the modern nonprofit sector in an op-ed for the Chronicle... check it out on my website www.robertegger.org. It's called A New generation, A New Commitment to Change.

Question from Gabe, young pro :
What should young professionals be asking for from seasoned managers looking for ideas on what to offer their young staffers in terms of professional development? Preferably low/no cost ideas.

Naomi Christine Leapheart:
I think nonprofits should set up internal professional development structures that allow for learning WITHIN organizations. Lots of times, folks are sitting on vast knowledge and experiences and don't share them because they aren't given the license to. Nonprofits can set up internal shadowing days or workshops/sessions on topics of relevance using the staff members and volunteers they already have.

Also, seasoned managers can support young leaders in their involvement in affinity groups like YNPN or EPIP. Sometimes just being able to leave a bit early for a free workshop makes all the difference in the world.

Comment from Dee, AES, UMass Amherst:
Eric, Thanks for this, this is the perfect wrap up for me, and I fully agree. Thank you all for sharing your lunch hour together. Dee

Question from Cathi Comer, ex-IBMer in transition:
Any advice for young at heart, mid career business executives transitioning to a non-profit position? As a long term IBMer (with a Ph.D.) I had recently molded my career to be more on the philanthropic side of IBM (Women's business development executive) and was laid off when the program was cut. I am excited about continuing on this journey in Philanthropy/non-profit and know that I have tremendous skills (strategy, planning, marketing, diversity management, fiscal management) to bring to bear on the leadership of a non-profit. I will agree with you that something needs to be done regarding compensation...I expect to take a big pay cut....looking like even getting 50% of my corporate income is going to be a stretch!...I am prepared for this change but I am sympathetic to all those dedicating their even their early careers...and it raises a thought that I'd like to emphasize that while in the short term hiring mid- and exec- level from outside the industry might seem to be diminishing the succession path for younger workers, perhaps infusing the corporate experience at the upper levels might bring many of the management skills necessary to effect the desired change? But back to the question.... Please let me know any specific research, reading, groups, organizations, education etc you might have for someone more senior (but still young!...Just have about 20 years experience in University Research and corporate development) transitioning from corporate world....Thanks

Eric Stevens:
Cathi, while in my former ED jobs, on several occasions I hired talented mid-career folks from the corporate world - because I was looking for some seasoned business/operational skills (and yes, they took pay cuts).

My main advice is network, network, network. Go to United Way in your community. Look to help out with your local Management Assistance Project. Join a board or two. Get your face known in that community. Learn more about their values and language.

Some corporate folks make it because they can bridge to the non-profit culture. Folks who are "too corporate" in their attitude may get rejected, or sometimes do not fit in.

Good luck - it sounds like you have a lot of assets to bring.

Comment from Allison Jones, OnlyUp:
This has been an amazing conversation! Thank you so much for sharing.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
We are out of time. Thank you for taking the time to join us today and share in this lively discussion. A special thanks, also, to our guests today -- Dave Algoso, Robert Egger, Naomi Christine Leapheart, and Eric Stevens.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
Please note that we hold these live sessions every Tuesday at noon Eastern time. We provide information about upcoming topics at http://philanthropy.com/live, through our Facebook group, and on Twitter at http://twitter.com/philanthropy. Next week, we'll discuss how nonprofit groups can build their presence on social networks. You can access that discussion here: http://philanthropy.com/live/2009/06/social_networks/

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
Thanks again.