June 03, 2009
What Can Charity Leaders Learn From Their 20-Something Employees?
Robert Egger, founder of the nonprofit DC Central Kitchen, sat down earlier this week for an hour-and-a-half conversation with 15 of his employees who haven’t yet turned 30.
The meeting was spurred in part by a discussion on a Give and Take post responding to author Dan Pallotta’s assertion that charities need to pay their employees better.
Mr. Egger says on his blog he was struck by how many young people complained in the Chronicle discussion about their poor salaries and lack of influence.
But he was not too worried he would hear similar complaints among his employees: DC Central Kitchen, Mr. Egger says, has worked hard to ensure that the gap between lower- and upper-level employees doesn’t get too large. Nevertheless, he says he learned a lot:
- The young people he met with were “busting with new ideas,” says Mr. Egger. “To be dismissed without a real read is insulting.”
- A $30,000 salary isn’t what it used to be. “No matter how little I made when I was 24,” he says, “it’s just not the same in 2009.”
- Young people’s student-loan debt makes low salaries even less realistic.
- Many of the young workers Mr. Egger spoke to saw their career advancement blocked, in part, by older workers. They are wondering what options for lateral movement there might be instead, he says.
- “They respect process up to the point that it stifles their ability to kick some ass,” Mr. Egger says. People in middle-management “are stuck between our organization’s need for process/outcome measurements and the energy, idealism, and impatience of our newest team members.”
- Believe the hype: This generation really is committed to service, says Mr. Egger. “They need a solid wage, but of equal value is a job where they really feel they have contributed. Never underestimate the power of this drive, but do not overestimate how long they will work if they are not in the process of divining the shared path.”
Do you agree with Mr. Egger?
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Nope.
— Sara Jun 3, 12:37 PM #
Absolutely!
— Christina Jun 3, 02:06 PM #
Absolutely. How refreshing that an organization’s leader is even asking these questions and listening to the answers. I’m sure he’s not the only one, but I’m also sure too many are not even bothering to ask and/or listen. Bravo. We do have talent, we do have ideas, and given enough guidance and enough of a leash, can accomplish great things.
Its not all about salaries, it’s about respect and trust and positive feedback—the knowledge that we are making a difference.
— anonymous Jun 3, 02:09 PM #
Yes, absolutely.
— Kat Jun 3, 02:09 PM #
Absolutely!
— Sarah Jun 3, 02:17 PM #
I basically agree.
— Dr. Don Orvis Jun 3, 02:19 PM #
salaries, respect, trust, contribution, positive feedback all go hand-in-hand.
— Kathy Jun 3, 02:20 PM #
Thanks for bringing up this up for dialogue though… needs to come from an older generation of nonprofiteers.
— kathy Jun 3, 02:24 PM #
Can’t be too quick to dismiss outcome measurement in favor of “kicking ass” — if you don’t measure how many asses you kicked and how hard, you’ll never know if you’re getting the best use out of those heavy-duty boots.
— mccxxiii Jun 3, 02:48 PM #
I don’t really see any difference between the attitudes expressed by the employees of the non-profit versus young employees working in other fields. This attitude of not being taken seriously, not being paid enough, not able to climb the ladder high enough fast enough, has been around forever! Goodness, I’m in my fourth decade of working and volunteering and I see this all the time and have experienced this myself – about three decades ago! Sure, young people have great ideas and they should be heard, but get real and understand that those older workers have paid their dues. Sure, they may not have any cutting edge ideas – or maybe they do – but they have something else that is just as or more valuable: more life experience, wisdom, the experience of having done things many different ways. Everyone needs to be respected but at the same time the young people need to show their respect for those who are ahead of them instead of dismissing them as old fogies who are impediments to their success.
— A Volunteer Jun 3, 02:58 PM #
I recently saw him speak & he is promoting some AMAZING ideas for our sector to step up & better guide our own destiny. HOWEVER:
“Mr. Egger says on his blog he was struck by how many young people complained in the Chronicle discussion about their poor salaries and lack of influence.”
Why is salary suddenly a hot topic? What about all of us 30- & 40-somethings who have been providing service for years (or decades, for those of us who began as volunteers in high school) and have been told to stop whining or shown the door when we ask for a reasonable wage & to be taken seriously? We may not have student loans (well, some still do), but we have mortgages, kids, grandkids…
Another issue that he discussed, which is much more relevant in trying to find a solution for the salary issue, is the “feminization” of the non-profit sector: we are cheap labor! In part, because so many of us have been women (not to mention, most top earners at NPOs are still men – but that’s another discussion). Let’s look at the overall structure that negatively affects ALL ages in our profession and tackle that so that all of us can finally stop complaining & get on with our important work.
— complaining about salary since before you were born Jun 3, 03:27 PM #
just go for-profit and volunteer non-profit.. solves your problems.
— a young gun Jun 3, 04:11 PM #
I am all for paying non-profit workers more. But are the watchdog groups, the media, and politicians on board? Or will livable wages that are comparable to for-profit salaries just bring unwanted media scrutiny? Societal expectations keep non-profit industry wages low. I invite all my colleagues under 30 to watch the news. How many times does a local reporter make their bones by exposing some non-profit worker who (god forbid) makes $50k/year.
— 36 and not whining Jun 3, 04:28 PM #
This is why I wrote Begging for Change five years ago…to (clumsily) begin to openly discuss the understandable, historic, yet maddening flaws that limit our sector’s ability to roar.
While my immediate interest this week was to listen to our under 30’s, this thread indicates that there’s clearly a communication breakdown going on from top to bottom, as well as from in and out of the sector. While I love/hate to generalize—-there’s been this huge interest in “training a new generation to lead” when it would appear that there’s an equal, if not more critical need to help/teach a “founding generation to loosen their grip”.
Power, authority, public stature is a hard thing to let go of, and so much of the chaffing I’m interpreting here seems to suggest that just about everybody is grappling with the evolution of the sector from the post 70’s, feminized nonprofits to the ones that will soon be led by all those who have been working, sweating, growing in the wings (or segueing from the for-profit side of the coin).
Let’s recognize that as hard as it is to wait, it’s just as hard to let go. We need to start to address transitional leadership from both ends, openly discuss how new ideas rise to replace old, explore our internal and external communication tactics—but most importantly, to recognize that the real power of our potential will only be realized if we commit to the fact that we are ALL in this together.
I know some of you are pissed. You have a right to be. But go home and listen to Joe Strummer, who once sang “anger can be power, if you know how to use it”.
Then come back tomorrow and use it.
— robert egger Jun 3, 05:10 PM #
“Let’s recognize that as hard as it is to wait, it’s just as hard to let go. We need to start to address transitional leadership from both ends, openly discuss how new ideas rise to replace old, explore our internal and external communication tactics—but most importantly, to recognize that the real power of our potential will only be realized if we commit to the fact that we are ALL in this together.”
Well said. It’s an issue that goes beyond the nonprofit sector but I think we just expect a lot less ego and entitlement than we would in the corporate world. We need to do what is best for the people (or animals) we serve. That requires good teamwork and strong leadership – and part of that is respecting (and harnessing) what every team member brings to the table.
Respect doesn’t mean giving up the reigns. But it does mean explaining why certain decisions were made or why things are done a certain way. I’m very okay with not getting my way as long as I can understand how the decision best serves the organization/mission (and I appreciate the opportunity to learn), but pulling rank just makes you seem like a tyrant. “Because I said so” didn’t ultimately stop me from doing anything as a kid, and it’s not magically more effective on adults.
— young nonprofit employee Jun 3, 05:57 PM #
While I’m of course biased being young myself, I think the unparalleled opportunities my generation has been lucky enough to have due to the hard work of our parents and grandparents has given us a sense of entitlement- not just that we deserve decent salaries, success, and fun, but that we have jobs we actually care about and create impact. Most people I know my age would never settle for a mind-numbing, faceless, 9-5 situation. So take the bad with the good, because in the end, it works to all of our advantage.
— Shari Jun 3, 05:59 PM #
These kinds of conversations are important across the board, not just in the nonprofit sector.
Creating opportunities for younger employees to use their ideas and develop their careers can be challenging in small organizations.
— Nancy Iannone Jun 3, 06:30 PM #
“Or will livable wages that are comparable to for-profit salaries just bring unwanted media scrutiny? Societal expectations keep non-profit industry wages low.”
My response to this is, So what? Why is media scrutiny a problem? Why can’t the counterpoint be something like, “Here’s the important work we do, and here’s how much it costs to get the right people, with the right skills and training, using the right technologies.”
Nonprofits deserve no less scrutiny than corporations about whether they are operating effectively.
As far as “societal expectations,” I believe the sector itself perpetuates these expectations that the work should be “reward enough”, and that organizations have no particular obligation to provide decent working conditions.
— Barbara Saunders Jun 4, 12:18 AM #
“just go for-profit and volunteer non-profit.. solves your problems.”
Believe me, a lot of us have tried. But many for-profit companies do not respect our experience, so we get stuck in their lower-paying jobs, too. Salary is part of the larger issue that our sector is not respected. Maybe that’s why the corporate failures are getting bailed out and people (in their 40s) who run small organizations that better the community are getting by on $11-12/hour with no benefits (yet, another discussion: the financial disparity between small & large orgs). We know how to make do and essentially get punished for it. Believe me, I am not saying, “Why don’t I make six figures?” $40K would be a fortune at this point!
Mr. Egger: Thanks for getting the discussion out there. And I wish more people would get angry – sadly, too many of my generation got stuck with hair-band complacency instead of punk-rock energy… So, until they finally come around, I am finding ways to turn my own disgust into something creative & hopefully beneficial to more paychecks than my own.
— complaining about salary since before you were born Jun 4, 10:11 AM #
Those of us in our 50’s and 60’s grew up with the idea that we needed to put in long hours in the work world. I don’t see that in the 20 somethings. If office hours are 9-5, they are loading up at 4:55 pm. I don’t see the willingness to put in the extra hours. However, I am sure there are plenty of baby boomers wondering why in the world they put in the long hours, just to be downsized.
Regarding salaries in the non profit world. Until the for profit world sees non profit work on the same level as for profit work, we will never earn a comparable salary. I actually had a board member tell me once that the ED had gone into non profit work because he couldn’t do anything else.
— Leslie Clay Jun 4, 11:24 AM #
I think the problem is saying “life experience” and “paying dues” are good enough.
Critical analysis skills are key. Don’t get me wrong, life experience is great, and when it can be quantified, shared and explained it’s invaluable.
But simply saying “I’ve worked here longer, so what I say is right because my life experience tells me so” isn’t going to improve anything for anyone in the nonprofit sector.
Taking the opportunity share these experiences and the lessons learned is what younger employees want.
Really what the “youth” are asking for is an opportunity to be heard and give our critical analysis of those situations. If we’re wrong, we’re more than happy to accept it, but we need reasons why and we need explanations.
We’re here to learn, grow and kick some ass. How about giving us a chance.
— Jordan Jun 4, 11:33 AM #
Outcomes assessments are overrated.
— erik Jun 4, 12:33 PM #
Provide them compensation based upon their ability to create and drive new funding to organizations utilizing new media.
— Peter Jun 4, 01:16 PM #
If you want to be treated like a for-profit employee, start acting like one. Be able to show on paper the measureable results of your efforts.
— Christina Jun 4, 04:07 PM #
Kudos to you, Mr. Egger, for taking the bold step of really listening. This, among many other things, makes you a true leader and innovator. We’re fortunate to have you in the sector!
— Sonia Singh Jun 4, 05:31 PM #
Bah.
— charles Jun 5, 01:49 PM #
That’s Mr. Bah to you, Chuck
— robert egger Jun 5, 02:44 PM #
Valuable information, feedback and humor is always welcome when broaching a tough subject. I believe how information is conveyed by both sides is a big part of how well it is received. When I was young, I wanted the why answered and still do. If it still does not make sense to me at 58 years young, I still have the right and opportunity to leave and move on to some place that makes me happy. I am not afraid, some of what I hear from my peers is fear and that is sad. Where is all that hutzpah we had in the 60’s gone? Keep learning from each other, show mutual respect and move on. Like it or not, a college graduate with experience and the right attitude is going to have more value to any organization – for-profit or not-for-profit. My work ethic is the same and yes, I have made more money in the for profit world, but it all has pro’s and cons. Find out what is important to you and then do it for the love of it. Again, like it or not, when you are young, knowing what is important to you may not be as clear yet. I say may, not everyone is the same.
— Cecelia De Filippis Jun 5, 03:15 PM #
It’s amazing that someone as innovative as Robert Egger would still take the time to sit with his junior staff to get their input. What an amazing indication of how his approach to lifelong learning has helped him become the innovator that he is!
— Jeremy Gregg Jun 7, 06:06 PM #
I have to admit that I’m a bit sick of Gen Xers (and baby boomers to some extent) using the argument that because they chose to put up with crappy salaries and long work hours, that those of us that are younger shouldn’t be able to ask for more.
Excuse me – since when do your choices have to limit the rest of us? And yes, I said choices. If you chose to put up with low salaries, ridiculous work hours and not getting promoted, that is perfectly fine. Just please don’t try to tell me or other younger nonprofit folks that we need to make the same choice.
— Elisa Jun 9, 10:11 AM #
No one is telling any one else not to ask for more. I think what really gets to the “old timers” is that many younger people act like they are the first non-profit workers to ask for a reasonable salary, etc, and that they expect immediate change. But this is not a new fight – and, yes, it will be a fight. Not only will you be out there fighting to promote/help your chosen cause; at many jobs, you will be fighting for your own livelihood. There are plenty of talented people who have threatened to walk away, or have walked away, and life goes on for the organization. Yes, there are the “dream” non-profit jobs, but those positions are few & far between – and the people who built up those orgs likely worked a long time to create a better workplace. So WHY do we stay? Because, even in our years & decades of disappointments, we still maintain a shred of idealism that we CAN change the world – for our causes and for our personal well-being. Because some of us have been fortunate to make small (& large) changes in our own offices. HOWEVER, we know that it does not change overnight.
And, again, low salary & disrespect are only two results of a disparate sector that fights external battles on many fronts while neglecting its collective, internal well-being. Hopefully by the time you are working with the next generation, these conversations will be obsolete.
Sadly, another Give & Take article demonstrates the backlash when an NPO exec does make a salary that probably is appropriate for her work:
http://philanthropy.com/giveandtake/article/1061/gawker-questions-public-radio-executives-pay#comment
— complaining about salary... Jun 9, 02:55 PM #
What a lively discussion — and a good one! I can see all points of view — typical Libra — but I particularly agree with the concept of working together with the older dedicated non-profit workers and the super smart bright young non-profit workers to help both sides with the transition that needs to take place. Both have value and lots to learn from each other. Unfortunately, the responsibilities and pressures that fall on the more senior non-profit management folks can interfere with this process. I think it can be done by taking the time to have a deliberate conversation and coming up with a strategic plan for your non-profit on what this looks like. I think we could all benefit from this. I appreciate the vibrant discussion on this topic.
— Kathy Deschner Jun 11, 03:35 PM #
This is sooo refreshing. I feel stifled as a young woman. I’m leaving a great organization to persue an advanced degree in nonprofits. I’m sorry that they don’t foster growth more. It will hurt them in the longrun. There is too much rigidity amongst many of the babyboomers I’ve worked for. Be more open minded. Have a little faith in us!
— Sarah Jun 14, 09:07 PM #
I think that many of the issues that Mr. Egger initially uncovered are tied up in a big knot, and solving any of these issues—low pay, combined with long hours, combined with the feeling of having one’s ideas disregarded— would do a great deal in helping to solve the rest. I don’t necessarily agree that a pay rise would fix the problem (and I say this as a young, relatively low-paid nonprofit professional about to take on more student loans).
I think that the most urgent issue here is that these employees feel like their ideas aren’t being received. It makes the low wages feel lower, and the long hours feel longer.
I think comment #14 from Mr. Egger and comment #15 are extremely powerful and a great way to approach this. I strongly agree with them.
I’ve personally experienced many of the hardships that Egger uncovered and, like Sarah in comment #33, I just left an (absolutely) incredible institution to pursue an advanced degree in nonprofit management. I believe that the younger generation is grateful and willing to be taught, if the older generation is gracious and willing enough to teach.
Maybe the key here is in creating mentor/mentee relationships?
— Colleen Jun 15, 03:40 PM #
yes this is definitely my experience in the nonprofit sector in Canada -it seems shared leadership is really hard for the baby boomer generation. More than salary, having influence is really important and the lack of influence is what I find particularly soul-destroying.
— Chelsea Jun 16, 01:04 PM #
Absolutely
— Gail Jun 24, 02:30 PM #