Philanthropy's Leadership Gap

Tuesday, March 11 at 12 noon, U.S. Eastern time

Caroline McAndrews, director of leadership communications for The Building Movement Project in New York.

Regina Dull, the 28-year-old executive director of International Student Conferences, in Washington, which operates cultural-exchange programs,and a board member at the Washington branch of the Young Nonprofit Professionals Network.

A transcript of the chat follows.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Welcome to today's live discussion about whether charities are doing enough to prepare their next generation of leaders. This is an important topic -- and one that worries many people in the field. Joining us today are two fantastic experts. Caroline McAndrews is director of leadership communications for The Building Movement Project in New York, a policy group that is working on this issue. Regina Dull is the 28-year-old executive director of a Washington charity who has already made the transition to nonprofit leadership. They are ready to take your questions. So let's get started.

Regina Dull:
    Thank you very much for organizing this chat and for inviting me to participate. I am looking forward to a great conversation.

Question from Sherry, large nonprofit:
    With no prospects for upward mobility within your own organization, what should a young administrator do? How do we gain the experience necesary to lead eventually?

Regina Dull:
    Dear Sherry - Thank you for the question. When there are no immediate or visible opportunities for upward mobility, it is up to you to look for the relevant chances to expand your skills and responsibilities. Some ideas:

- Volunteer for new projects as they come along, a proactive and positive attitude is always noticed

- Ask to be included when projects you've contributed to are presented to executive level meetings or to the Board of Directors. Gaining a familiarity with Board interactions is a great skill.

- Ask if one of your superiors has a few moments to train you as a back-up for them on something. Learning financial processes and statements is always a great idea.

- Look outside your workplace for volunteer opportunities. For example, try serving on a Board of Directors for another organization you care about or volunteering to help with strategic planning for a smaller organization. DC Cares offers many ways for skilled volunteer work that can boost your resume.

-Last, when you've learned all you can and had a talk with your supervisors but still see little chance for advancement, it may just be time to move on.

Good luck!

Regina

Question from Stephanie Sandler, The Giving Back Fund:
    Several up and coming potential executives have expressed to me a feeling that there is an atmosphere of "an exclusive club" that permeates traditional philanthropy; they feel unwelcomed. Do you believe that this is significantly contributing to the lack of interest in Executive-level nonprofit positions? Also, what role is the increasing need to demonstrate ROI playing?

Caroline McAndrews:
    While it's possible that some people feel excluded by those in executive positions, we've found that it has much more do with the nature of the nonprofit job itself. The long hours and unrealistic job expectations are mentioned more often. However, many feel there is a lack of opportunity to work with mentors, so if there is a "club", that's a major barrier. In terms of ROI, it increases the demands on the position, which feeds into what we're hearing from young leaders as to why they're not interested in executive director positions at this time.

Question from virginia oehler, Community Health Foundation of Western & Central NY:
    What is the most effective role philanthropic organizations can play in the development & evaluation of leadershhip programs?

Regina Dull:
    Hello Virginia - I think we all wish that every philanthropic organization would ask that question! Thank you. There are a variety of ways that organizations can play a role in leadership development. Helping to make programs accessible to those who need it would be my advice. This could mean gifts of funding, but also can mean gifts of time and convenience. In the nonprofit world many of us are stretched to our limits and simply can't afford to take the time out for professional development. Finding ways to help ease that constraint would be the most valuable. Of course, supporting nonprofit organizations who are focused specifically on young nonprofit professional skill development like the Young Nonprofit Professionals Network and their chapters across the country, is also very effective in being able to do more across the board. Best, Regina

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    We're off to a great start and we're getting some excellent questions. I'd like to invite others in the audience to get their questions into the mix by clicking on the "ask a question" link on this page.

Question from Diane, independent fundraiser:
    Why can't I find a job if there is such a need in the non-profit world for senior executives who can do the big ask? I have applied all over, and it seems even tho I am ready, willing and able to work, no one wants to hire you if you are over 50, even if you are willing to take less money.

Caroline McAndrews:
    Unfortunately, ageism still cuts both ways. While we hear about the barriers to young leaders moving into higher positions in nonprofits, we also see a reluctance to hire older employees, not just in nonprofits, but in the corporate sector as well. Some organizations have begun addressing this issue, including AARP, in order to match older professionals with nonprofit and foundation work. I would suggest checking their programs out.

Question from Russell Willis Taylor, National Arts Strategies:
    Do you think that these younger people have seen more clearly the flaws in the working conditions we have all created, and that their "refusal to play" by our rules may actually improve the field significantly, as the jobs will have to change for the better?

Regina Dull:
    Dear Russell, Thank you for the question. I am guessing that the flaws you are referring to are the traditional long hours and lower pay of nonprofit jobs. I don't think that younger employees see these challenges any more or less clearly than previous generations, but that they are less afraid to speak up about them. Further the hope is that anytime the collective voices speak up that change will occur. The needed change though isn't just with nonprofit employers, but also with how our society values nonprofit work. Many people do not want to fund salaries or overhead and often forget that not all charity work is performed by volunteers. As the whole nonprofit circle works out kinks in the system many aspects will continue to improve, including working conditions. Best, Regina

Comment from Susan Hammond:
    I have a comment. Until a year ago I served as the CFO of a small museum. I made it a point to get all the managers, many under 35, to prepare their own budgets. I worked side by side with them. Over the years our relationships developed such that there weren't many surprises. Two of the managers are now coaching clients as we have all left. It was one of the most rewarding parts of my job.

Question from Craig Weinrich, Nonprofit Coordinating Committee of New York:
    What are some practical steps that other nonprofits are doing encourage the next generation of leadership? All of these articles and surveys do not give us concrete examples.

Caroline McAndrews:
    The initial step that many nonprofits have taken is to provide leadership and skills training to their employees. However, this issue goes beyond having the "skills" to lead because it's clear that many in generations X and Y working in nonprofits have the skills, but are still not given the opportunity. It's important to begin a conversation about how power and decision-making operates inside nonprofits. We've seen groups begin using case scenarios and other exercises to get at the deeper issues of why power isn't being shared. The Building Movement Project has several of these exercises that I'd be happy to share with you.

Question from Megan, small nonprofit volunteer, 26:
    First, thank you very much to the Chronicle for these articles. I definitely feel the same way as a lot of the other young professionals interviewed. Question: One of the problems mentioned is that the older generation views we're not ready for responsibility and authority, and younger professionals are busting at the seams wanting to take on that responsibility and know we can handle it. What are some practical tips or ideas for how to address this issue within a small staff/small nonprofit environment? Also, any tips for how to address this in the interview environment, i.e. how to see if you will be given responsibility or if you will be micro-managed? Thanks!

Regina Dull:
    Dear Megan, The key to earning trust and responsibility is really to be proactive, ask questions and find tangible ways to demonstrate your abilities. Rather than waiting for projects, assess the things going on around you and try to brainstorm a list of ideas for how programs or processes might be improved and then volunteer to write a draft for how to do it. Discuss this with a superior to find out what they like and don't like about your ideas. This will give you great insight into the issues they worry about as well as show them what you already knew - you can handle it! For interview, I would ask to speak with the person who will be supervising you if you aren't already. Then ask them about their management style and how they work best (I would avoid the word micro-management). Treat it as a 2-way conversation and don't be afraid to turn down the job if it doesn't look like a good fit. Good luck! Regina

Question from Olivia, Returned Peace Corps Volunteer:
    There are capable philanthropic work driven people out there (like myself) that want to work with an organization and prepare to take on a leadership driven role. However, finding an organization that will give you the opportunity without a significant amount of experience in various areas(vol. mgmt, fund-raising, grants) is very difficult. I do not understand why if this such a serious problem, why there is not more being done to provide opportunities (mentoring programs..) to these people to assist them in filling and preparing for a leadership position...What do you believe is the best course of action for someone who wants to be a leader, but can't find an organization to give them the opportunity to learn and succeed?

Caroline McAndrews:
    Unfortunately, unless you go through a nonprofit management program or a sponsored nonprofit fellowship program, the best course of action is to learn to lead by first following. In many cases the rule of "it's not what you know it's who you know" still holds true. Spend a year or two in an associate level position learning the ropes and then tapping into your supervisor's network to get the job you want. Alternatively, begin by volunteering in an organization you're interested in, learning about there programs and infrastructure, and seek out a mentor who can help you navigate.

Question from Carig Weinrich, Nonprofit Coordinating Committee of New York:
    What do you recommend are some of the practical steps that organizations can do to encourage leadership?

Regina Dull:
    Encourage their growth every chance you get: - offer professional development funds that they could use to take training classes or buy books - offer training opportunities in-house, learning financial statements, fundraising, etc. - Give them a chance to attend high level meetings, outside appointments, or major gift asks as an observer so that can see what it is like - let them know when you recognize they are doing good work

Question from John C McGee, Consultant:
    Seven years ago I attended a training in which the presenter indicated referred to a study that indicated that most nonprofit executive would not take another positions as executive director should they be chanign jobs. What has changed in the past seven years to elevate awareness of this issue and the question of who takes their place?

Caroline McAndrews:
    You're probably referring to the "Daring to Lead" report published by CompassPoint in 2001 and again in 2006 which showed that 75% of Executive Directors planned to leave their jobs in the next 5 years. Clearly they weren't able to leave as the 2006 study showed! Baby Boomers are healthier, living longer, and working longer than previous generations. Not only are they able and willing to work, but often times have to work because of health care and retirement needs. What many are trying to figure out now is how to best use the knowledge, skills, history, and dedication of the Boomers in other nonprofit positions. We've seen some Executive Directors move into advisory or consulting roles within their own or other nonprofits. The issue is definitely being talked about more which is an important step and a big change from seven years ago. In terms of who takes their place, those folks are often right in their own organizations, they're just not viewed as leaders yet.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    We're about halfway through today's discussion. I'd like to remind everyone who has a question for our guests to post their queries soon, so Caroline and Regina have a chance to answer them before out time is up. If you have already asked a question and haven't yet received an answer, please be patient. We will get to as many of your questions as we can during our allotted time. Thanks.

Question from Katie Martin, New York Philanthropic Advisory Service (NYPAS):
    What is your advice on how to best prepare myself to run a non-profit? I recently graduated with my B.S. and am considering graduate school.

Caroline McAndrews:
    Katie, I would go to work or volunteer in a nonprofit for a year or two before going back to graduate school. The real life experiences of being in the nonprofit sector will add a level of richness and depth to your graduate school studies and better prepare you to apply them once you re-enter the workforce. Those looking to hire senior level managers want to know that in addition to your formal studies, you've also earned a few credits at the school of hard knocks.

Question from Anne Dunning, ARTS Action Research:
    Are young leaders getting enough support once they are in leadership positions to be successful? If not, how can we better support the young leaders in our field as they step up?

Regina Dull:
    Some are getting great support but others are often forgotten. This is generally a reflection of the organization's size and leadership values. Support can come in many forms and some of the most helpful can be as simple as a willingness to be open and listen to their challenges with out criticizing or giving a well deserved compliment for a job well done. Encourage young leaders to also join peer groups such as the YNPNdc's Executive Director Roundtable or any of the DC Nonprofit Roundtable's groups for Emerging leaders, and function specific leaders. These groups can let a young leader know they aren't the only one facing challenges in their position and encourage confidence.

Comment from Bill Mengerink, Consultant:
    Comment. I don’t think the milieu or culture in many nonprofits is conducive to learning. In spite of the many books on the workplace as a learning environment, as a former teacher, I believe one of the most important criterion for learning is to feel safe. We need to encourage leadership to allow young professionals to feel safe, make mistakes, offer silly suggestions, etc. No one hits a big-idea home run at every at bat. Young staff need to know they can “strike out” and not be judged or punished.

Question from Alicia Anstead, Association of Performing Arts Presenters, service organization:
    What is the role of women in leadership roles in nonprofit organizations, especially pertaining to the arts? Of the third of the leaders who said they would take on nonprofit leadership roles, how many were women? Thank you for your consideration.

Caroline McAndrews:
    Alicia, despite more women and people of color in Generations X and Y working in nonprofits, we still don't see them in as many leadership roles. This continues to be a major barrier when it comes to generational changes in nonprofit leadership. In the report you're referring to, I only saw a breakdown by race in terms of the third who want to be an executive director. However, over 75% of the respondents to the survey were women.

Question from Christopher, United Way:
    What do you think is the most important leadership quality a young leader should possess if he/she does want to become a nonprofit executive someday?

Regina Dull:
    Vision, Confidence and Patience. There are many skills needed to be a great executive, but among the financial, HR, fundraising, administrative, management and other skills those are the 3 that stand out for me. Plus a positive attitude.

Question from Richard Potter, American Humanics:
    Is the "long hours, low pay" complaint unique to the nonprofit sector? It seems there are lots of "for profit" jobs (especially small business, retail, etc.) that are facing the same issues.

Regina Dull:
    Richard, I would agree that there are jobs across all sectors that are challenged by wage levels and working hours. It seems from the data in surveys like the one in this article that this phenomenon does effect nonprofits more. To speak for myself, I took a position that paid about $30k less to be in a nonprofit than what I could have started at in the private OR government sectors. I am only one example though.

Question from Maria Nicole Smith, NYC Cultural Institution:
    In your surveys and research regarding generational shifts within the nonprofit sector, how has the emergence of new nonprofits started by young people affected the sector? Could it be that the leaders who are willing to put in the long hours, make the life sacrifices for work, raise the funds are starting their own organizations rather than look for promotions within established nonprofits? Also, how has the rise of social enterprise, venture philanthropy and other not-so-nonprofit entities affected the recruitment and retention of young nonprofit professional leaders? Thank you.

Caroline McAndrews:
    We've found that oftentimes the reason young people are starting their own nonprofits in the first place is not because they work harder, but because they feel like their ideas and contributions are not used or appreciated within existing nonprofits. They feel they need to go outside the current structures to innovate and implement their ideas. Social enterprise, venture philanthropy, etc contribute to this as they reward "new" and "exciting" ideas that younger leaders are offering. The caution is not to abandon effective service and social change work going on within existing nonprofits, but instead find a way to allow for innovation.

Comment from Jennifer, small nonprofit:
    Another comment that echoes several others - including the one about philanthropy supporting capacity-building of non-profits. Small nonprofits (in particular) are so under-resourced that staff is totally immersed in the day-to-day. There are no funds for professional development, and the time needed for explicit mentoring that is so crucial for gaining experience for advancement is simply not there. Oftentimes, it is a sink or swim situation that brings out the best potential leadership qualities, but that doesn't always mean that those qualities are nurtured effectively.

Question from Maria Nicole Smith, NYC cultural institution:
    First, I am grateful that the guests have taken the time to answer questions. It is appreciated.

After reading the 3/6/08 article, "Young and Restless" in the Chronicle, I had to copy the chart titled Percentage of Workers Who Want to Be Executive Directors and pin it to my bulletin board because the data was so telling. Between white employees and minority employees, more minority employees than white employees answered "probably yes" and "definitely yes" when asked if they want to be executive directors. As a young Black nonprofit professional, this intrigued me, and here is my question:

How do minority employees interested in becoming executive directors get access to opportunities to serve on boards and be mentored by executives so that when we become executive directors, the transitions are smooth and the results beneficial to our organizations and to the sector?

I'd also like to know what each guest thinks about the statistics on minority and white employees as it relates to the groups' aspirations within the field and how the sector might change over time considering the multi-layered changing dynamics of leadership.

Thank you.

Caroline McAndrews:
    Maria Nicole, access to opportunities to serve on boards come through your personal and professional networks. In addition to asking their current board members to refer new board members, some nonprofits look to their membership and donor base, consultants and volunteers to find new board members. As far as being mentored by executives, our studies have found that many of the executives you may be referring to don't have time to do the type of mentoring you are seeking. This remains a problem in the nonprofit sector and is included in the recommendations we have consistently made. For now, again, I would refer you to your personal and professional networks to find one of the few programs that do exist to find a suitable mentor. You may be surprised to find that there are in fact executives or former executives just waiting to be asked to fulfill such a role. Good luck!

Comment from Shira, large nonprofit NYC:
    Just a little addition to Jennifer's comment..I think the same is true for larger organizations. It is very difficult to find supportive managers even with staff in the hundreds...Part of the reason young non-profit administrators jump around so much is the need to find a good fit, to feel their way through different environments and managers. This makes it hard to move up at the same company you started at, but gives you a good feel for the industry as a whole.

Question from Alexis Terry, BoardSource:
    I'm reading and hearing a lot about generational leadership and governance issues in the sector and am pursuing a research agenda for BoardSource on the matter. In your opinion, what 3 to 5 skills or resources would board members need in order to work well with younger generations? Additionally, what 3 to 5 skills or resources are necessary for a young professional to be a valuable member of a board?

Regina Dull:
    I think the best quality of any board member is curiosity. We need Board members who are curious enough to ask the questions that keep our organizations on track programmatically, financially, administratively, etc. For older Board members being open to new ideas and flexible in their thinking can really go a long way. Listening to a younger person and then asking the curious questions gives the young person the chance they need to be heard, even if the idea doesn't work out. For young professionals these days it is key to learn how to be polite and respectful. Those simple courtesies are essential to building good relationships and advancing ones career.

Question from Christy, mid-sized arts organization:
    I think the emphasis on leadership succession may be putting the cart before the horse. In some cases, the current leadership of organizations is already lacking and ineffective. Without a succession plan, the result will be similar to a Darwin's survival among the fittest nonprofits. Do you think this streamlining will highlight more successful, surviving orgs and appeal to future administrators to enter the field?

Caroline McAndrews:
    Christy, you make a strong point in terms of the over-emphasis on leadership succession. However, instead of sacrificing nonprofits to the laws of evolution, we can instead use this opportunity to look at some of the larger issues around current leadership structures. In other words, how you frame the issue leads you to different solutions. In our research, we've looked at 5 ways to approach generational changes in leadership, including re-examining the role of the executive director and admitting that it may not be a "doable" job. We've also seen organizations re-structure their leadership altogether (such as Project South, mentioned in the Chronicle article), and create leadership teams, co-directorships, and collectives. So sometimes it's not that current leadership is ineffective, it's that our structures are lacking.

Question from Anonymous:
    What advice do you have for young workers currently in nonprofit management programs and how they can garner support from their organizations? How do you see these programs fitting into the future of NP leadership?

Regina Dull:
    The best way to get support is to ask for it. If it seems like a long shot, try to be more creative in your pitch. Remind the organization of the benefit to them for support you and offer to use your new skills in a way that brings value to the organization. I think NP management programs are wonderful tools for our sector. Upcoming leaders are sure to be more trained in the craft of nonprofit leadership than ever before.

Question from AM, medium nonprofit:
    I see many Baby Boomers enjoying their second careers after retirements from the corporate sector, and they are thus unaffected by low nonprofit pay and are seen as more "valuable" since they have several years of work experience. How do you think this phenomenon will affect Gen X and Y-ers who are trying to get into entry-level nonprofit jobs taken by Baby Boomers?

Caroline McAndrews:
    AM, this is an interesting anecdotal finding you are referring to. We actually haven't heard much from older and younger people in the nonprofit workforce describing the phenomenon you are referencing. With that said, Gen X and Y-ers are bringing new and different skills and perspectives that should continue to make them valuable assets to nonprofits, especially in the entry-level jobs you are describing.

Question from Peter Panepento:
    Regina: Could you talk a little bit about your own transition into nonprofit leadership? What issues have you faced as a young professional? What steps have you taken to make sure you can be successful?

Regina Dull:
    I've always jumped at the opportunity for involvement in issues I cared about and tried to build my skills along the way. To that end I held several leadership positions throughout my college years and was able to transition that experience well into the working world. I then gained valuable fundraising, financial, and personnel skills early in my first job. So that when I applied for my current executive position after graduate school, I had concrete examples of my skills and achievements. Since then it has been a challenge sometimes earning respect for my position and I have been directly challenged due to my age. But it has been important for me to not react emotionally to those challenges but with tact and more examples of my achievements and value to the organization.

Question from Hannah, arts management student:
    How can nonprofits develop a more racially/ethnically diverse workforce and more diverse leadership in the future?

Caroline McAndrews:
    Hannah, demographics are doing a lot of the work for us. Already, the nonprofit sector is reflecting the diversity you are referring to. If we feel that diversity is lacking in a particular organization, we probably need to be looking outside of our traditional networks to bring the diversity you are talking about. Extending ourselves differently and looking in new places might yield results. Secondly, we should look internally, at our organization's culture to ensure it is ready to accept the diversity you seek. Examining an organization's culture and shifting it to meet the needs of a new and or different workforce will take time and deliberate work.

Question from Selena, arts service org.:
    Following up on Russell's question earlier--will more work traditionally done by nonprofits be done by organizations that are not 501c3s? What viable alternatives are there?

Regina Dull:
    There are some for profit organizations taking on more socially responsibly causes, but I don't think by any means that the NP sector is shrinking. If anything more and more issues are being tackled everyday and the competition for philanthropic dollars is increasing. We will all continue to do the best we can to make the world a better place.

Question from Anonymous:
    What advice do you have for young workers currently in nonprofit management programs and how they can garner support from their organizations? How do you see these programs fitting into the future of NP leadership?

Caroline McAndrews:
    Many young leaders have struggled to match their formal education in nonprofit management with the "on-the-ground" training that many current leaders look for. These programs offer useful skills in running a nonprofit; however, my advice would be to continue to work or volunteer with a nonprofit while in school. In addition, some larger nonprofits have tuition reimbursement programs and see those skills as a benefit to the organization.

Question from Maria Nicole Smith, NYC Cultural Institution:
    This question is particularly for Ms. McAndrews: Did you feel READY to be an executive director? What were was the context for your move in that direction? Thank you.

Caroline McAndrews:
    That's a tricky question, Maria Nicole, since I'm not technically an EXECUTIVE director, but the Director of Leadership & Communication, which basically means I'm a program director. The Building Movement Project has struggled with generational issues just like most other nonprofits! The short answer is I did feel prepared to move into a director position, but the support and mentoring of the Project Director was essential. Three years ago we had our own little hierarchy set up, even though there were only two full-time staff members and one part-time. It took paying attention to our own research (along with some pressure from our Project Team) to realize that we could structure our project in a much more creative and effective way.

Question from Alicia, editor, nonprofit arts magazine:
    Often we find that underpaid exectuvie positions, especially in nonprofits, fall to women. What leadership trends have you noticed about women in nonprofits/philanthropic roles in the arts: Are they leaving their positions more than men? Are they staying more than men?

Caroline McAndrews:
    Alicia, actually we don't have a lot of information about who's staying and who's leaving; however, in our interviews with younger men in management levels, they are expressing concern about the ability to take paternity leave, spend more time with their family, etc. Even more so than the women we spoke with.

Regina Dull:
    Thank you again for all the great questions and the chance to participate today. If you are a young leader remember to stay confident, take initiative, be polite and remain positive! Have a great day! Regina

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Wow. That was a fast hour. Our time is now up. Thank you to everyone who took the time out of their busy workdays to join us for this discussion. A special thank you, also, to our guests, Caroline McAndrews and Regina Dull, both of whom offered some excellent tips and perspectives. Don't forget to join us on Tuesday, March 18, at noon Eastern time for our next discussion about special-events fund raising. I hope to see you all then.

Caroline McAndrews:
    Thanks for all your great questions!