Jumping to the Business World

Tuesday, June 17, at 12 noon, U.S. Eastern time

Paul Herrerias is a managing director at Stanton Chase International, in San Francisco, an executive search firm. Mr. Herrerias has worked with many former nonprofit employees who have made the transition to working for businesses.

A transcript of the chat follows.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Welcome to today's live discussion about how nonprofit workers can make the jump to working for businesses. Often, we hear stories of people who take jobs at charities after working in the business world. But we often forget that many workers who work for charities make a similar transition to work for businesses. Today, we have careers expert Paul Herrerias from Stanton Chase in San Francisco on hand to take your questions on how to successfully make the jump.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    We also have a late addition to our panel today. Eric Webber, managing partner of WebberMcJ Communications in Austin, Texas. Mr. Webber spent many years working in fund raising, most recently in major gifts for Tulane University and Texas Christian University. He left the nonprofit world and now is a partner in his own for-profit communications company. Welcome Eric.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    To submit a question to our guests, please click on the "ask a question" link on this page. You are also welcome to share your comments and advice throughout the discussion.

Question from Joy Summerfield:
    After college I did a year of Americorps and then joined a Foundation for a year. Now I feel like I am pigeonholed and don't know how to get into the business world to start my career. I can't apply as a new graduate, but also don't have the same "experience" as someone who has worked in business for two years. How do I best make the leap into my career? (Originally planned to be an actuary, but am now interested in data analysis or financial services.) Would this be a good time to get my MBA to better fit in and know what I want to do?

Paul Herrerias:
    Joy, Remember to leverage your existing experience along four sub-categories:

1) Industry (okay, you were in a different industry!)

2) Company Environment (here you can draw parallels)

3) Relationships (speak to your interractions, leadership, responsibilities, etc.)

4) Functions (Sell what you did. Repackage it be relevant to the reader in the for-profit world.)

If you you have a weak case today, then:

A) FUNCTIONAL- build your credibility by getting the MBA to bolster your functional skills,

B) INDUSTRY- do an internship in your next desired industry,

C)RELATIONSHIPS- recruit an advisory board of folks who have the relationships you need, etc.

D) Your other ideas to strenghten our case in each of the four experience areas listed above.

How will you know when your case is strong enough? Well...you land a job in the field you want!

Good luck!

Question from Christina Peña, mid-size nonprofit:
    How can you show that your experience in the nonprofit world is relevant and valuable to a position in the business world?

Paul Herrerias:
    Take a step back and look at your experience as an outsider would. In my own case, I made the transition from fundraising to consumer Public Relations. The skills are very similar, although that might not seem obvious at first glance. But the ability to develop relationships, to read your audience to determine what needs you can satisfy for them, how to craft your story to fit the audience -- they're the same skills.

Question from Amie Michalek, Bay Area:
    So many times I have had people ask me about making the transition from corporate world to nonprofit. I talk about changing the language that they use, as nonprofit professionals don't necessarily understand the same jargon. Does the same hold for doing the reverse?

Paul Herrerias:
    Absolutely! Hiring managers will hire for four reasons:

1) They TRUST you.

2) You bring the right CREDIBILITY.

3) You have the desired EXPERIENCE (see my last response).

4) Together you agree on the DEMOGRAPHICS of time, place, and money.

Language falls into the second category, CREDIBILITY. Do you look, sound, and act the part? Language is a subliminal clue to who you are, what is important to you, and how well we "fit" together.

Based on your language you also give clues as to your Values, you Needs, and your focus...which reflects on their ability to TRUST you from category one above. Thus, you want to 'sound' like one of them.

To do that, stay focused on their organization's PURPOSE System:

Mission,

Vision,

Values, and

Strategic Objectives.

When you speak to these things, using words from the Vision Statement, for exmaple, or refer to strategic objectives like: Market Share, Profits, Distribution, Competition, Teamwork, Information Systems, Timeliness...you are in "sync" with the listener and more likely to be hired and trusted!

We need a Rosetta Stone for the business world, don't we?!!

Or maybe a Berlitz course on "Business Speak"!

Good luck!

Question from Jamie, via Philanthropy Today:
    Is it possible to make the transition as an older adult who has been as a nonprofit consultant for 8+ years. Work focuses on governance training, strategic planning, funds development and program development. Work consists of many clients with short term interventions that have great diversity in mission, capacity, size, and leadership styles. What experience is relevant to for profit businesses? I led a nonprofit from start up through the first 10 years and have worked in developing countries. Thanks.

Paul Herrerias:
    It seems like entrepreneurial companies, especially those venturing into new countries, would find your experience valuable. Remember, your specific knowledge is valuable, but it's your problem solving ability that strikes me as potentially attractive. Governance training, strategic planning, etc. aren't exclusive to the non-profit world. Neither is your ability to work with a diverse work force.

Question from Peter Panepento -- Moderator:
    Eric, as someone who made the jump, what were some of the biggest surprises you encountered between cultures? Or was your transition relatively easy?

Eric Webber:
    Like any transition, it had its ups and downs. The resources available was a nice change. That is, the investment that for-profits make in, say, marketing materials, was nice to have. One pleasant surprise was the reaction I had when people found out I'd recently been a fund raiser. It was universally positive. I hadn't realized the general respect that people in the for-profit world have for those working in the non-profit arena. They tend to respect that it is hard work done with usually scarce resources.

Question from Joe Hunt -- via Philanthropy Today:
    What types of businesses and positions value nonprofit experience?

Paul Herrerias:
    Only the ones you effectively sell to!

It is up to you to package your non-profit experience. No two careers in non-profit industry are alike. Business world employees do not know what to expect...you need to educate them on your value to their organization.

How? Use the models I shared earlier to craft your sales pitch:

* INDUSTRY- discuss your knowldege of their industry (helps to read business newspapers, listen to business oriented radio programs, scan online news sites daily, subscribe to at least one online news service of value. Find the ones that value human services, education, community, etc. This can be the hardest of the four Career Experience elements to sell on. The next three are easier:

* COMPANY- Share with them how you added value to an organization. The human element is crtical in any organization: how well did you suppport the mission, values, culture, and strategic objectives of your employer? If you did this for your current employer, then you are more likely to do so again for your next employer. Share what you like and value about their business. What gets you excited about this company, such that you would be a good, loyal, supportive, committed employee? Most folsk in the non-profit world have a sense of purpose and passion...two valuable commodities in the For-Profit world too!

* RELATIONSHIPS- Discuss how you worked with others in the organization: superiors, peers, and subordinates. Are you a team player? individual contributor? project manager? Sell your strengths whether in the non-profit or for-profit world. Non-profit employees are viewed as being strong people-oriented employees...take advantage of that!

* FUNCTIONS- Non-profits often have to do "more with less"...and have more experience at that than the for-profits...play that up to your future employer. You are frugal, efficient, creative, resourceful. Any company looking to be the same will appreciate your non-profit experience. You just have to tell them as they usually don't know the questions to ask, and are not thinking about how to hire someone from the non-profit world. Surprise them!

Hope ths helps!

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    We're approaching the halfway point in today's discussion. If you have already submitted a question, please stay tuned for the answer. If you haven't but would like to share your query, now is a good time to do so. Please feel free to click on the "ask a question" link and fire away.

Question from Petra Fitch, Arizona State University Foundation:
    What are the skills business employers look for in "former" non-profit employees; and which skills, if any, could set NP employees apart from for-profit employees?

Eric Webber:
    I've mentioned this before in another response, so pardon me if it's redundant, but it's important for someone looking to make the transition to do a sort of skills audit. You have to look at your own capabilities with a cold and dispassionate eye. That being said, one skill I think non-profit employees usually have is doing more with less. Finding creative solutions for problems, where oftentimes in the for-profit world we think throwing money at a problem is the solution. So somebody who can be innovative in that way catches my eye.

Question from Mark:
    For people like myself in the development/fundraising field who also have done political work, what kind of jobs are there for us without returning to politics?

Paul Herrerias:
    in the corporate world the roles I see most easily open to you are:

* Development (Business Dev., Corporate Dev., Fund-raising, partnership dev., etc.)

* Relations (Investor Relations, Shareholder Relations, Community Relations, etc.)

* Marketing (Promotions, Project Management, etc.)

These are the first ones to come to my mind that I have seen...

You don't have to return to politics as a career, though you can always pursue as an avocation. You will, however, forever be committed to learning. Continuous Education has served you well, and will continue to. Best wishes.

Question from Michael Anthony, large nonprofit:
    Hi, thanks for this great session. Is there any specific industry or business segment that is considered the best fit for professionals coming from the nonprofit world?

Paul Herrerias:
    Not in my experience. After 28 years of helping SF Bay Area organizations recruit top talent, I have not found that pattern.

More important is your personal character and willingness to sell yourself.

(See earlier comments on how to sell your career.)

Oh, and remember to work your network, at all times. Often companies value the personal network of someone who has worked in the non-profit sector as they have pervasive networks that can help get business done.

Let me ask YOU...what are the greatest assets of someone coming from the non-profit world? (Ask yourself this question daily as it not only keeps you focused on your mission, but it also prepares you for your interviews!)

Time goes by too quickly to not be focused on your mission every day.

Question from Michael, director of development:
    I have been responsible (and successful) at raising approx. $3 million per year over the last four years. I am interested in transitioning into a business development/sales position with an educational or financial information publisher. What skills should I be highlighting from my years in development that would be of interest to an HR person who would be reviewing my resume?

Eric Webber:
    I know a lot of fundraisers don't like to refer to what they do as "sales," but that's exactly what it is. I know a lot of good professional sales people who would be scared to death to ask someone for money without getting something material in return. I think what I would highlight is your ability to size people up -- good fundraisers are excellent people readers. Also your ability to handle resistance or rejection. Good fundraisers are nimble and adaptable. And the ability to take sometimes complex projects and explain them in the prospects own language is a valuable sales skill.

Question from Anne, medium nonprofit:
    I have 20 years' experience in Corp and Foundation fundraising, including education, arts, and hospital sectors. I have also nearly completed an MBA. I am interested in exploring corporate communications/community relations -- in your experience does making such a shift entail a reduction in salary, given that I'm at a senior level now in terms of non-profit salaries?

Eric Webber:
    You've hit on one of the major problems when making this transition -- not everyone in the for-profit world values nonprofit experience the same way they do for-profit experience, which they may tend to give a little more weight. That's not fair, in my view, but it happens. But there are plenty of areas where that's not so much of an issue. You mention you've worked with hospitals, and they are an example. There are plenty of hospital and healthcare-related businesses who have corporate communications needs, would likely value someone who knows that industry, and who often pay well.

Companies that are entrepreneurial in nature also tend to be open-minded about experience. Entrepreneurs usually see things a little differently than other businesspeople, and that includes assessing talent.

Also keep in mind that, even if you do take a salary reduction at first, increases can happen quicker and bigger in the for-profit world than they ever will in the non-profit sector.

Question from Peter Panepento -- Moderator:
    What skills do you wish you had honed more while you were working as a fund raiser to better prepare you for your move?

Eric Webber:
    I wish I had taken the time to learn more about some of the core business driving issues. Economics, for instance. I knew the basics, but probably wasn't as well versed as I should have been. Or just how certain industries work. I probably came across as a bit naive after I'd made the transition.

Question from Christina Peña, mid-size nonprofit:
    I think I have a similar experience to Joy's. I have worked for a nonprofit for a year now as Communications Associate, functioning mostly in Public Relations. But now with more experience, I realize that branding is really what I am most interested in. Again like Joy, I am not sure if I need to get an MBA to prove that I have the skills for the business world. But I am having a hard time positioning myself into the marketing-type industry of branding.

Eric Webber:
    First off, and I don't mean to offend anyone at all, but in advertising and PR (I've worked in both) an MBA isn't necessarily considered a benefit. I'm not saying that's a good policy for, say, an ad agency, but it's certainly a reality. At the very least, it's not nearly as big a plus as it is in other industries.

You might look for smaller agencies that do both advertising (branding) and PR. The term "branding" is used so many different ways these days as to almost be meaningless. PR is an integral part of building a brand. So if you can get in the door by applying you more obvious skill, you'll be able to show (or at least see) whether your skills and talents (and interests) apply to the advertising side.

Question from Terrence, via Philanthropy Today:
    What recommendations can you make for a young prospect researcher (2 years) with an MBA who wants to transition into a career as a financial analyst?

Paul Herrerias:
    1) make acquaintances in the for-profit world's finance departments.

2) research open F/A jobs (Craig's list, Monster, HotJobs, etc.)

3) Get to know other F/As and ask their advice/contacts/skill sets.

4) attend educational events where these for-profit world F/A hang out.

5) Select three industries you REALLY want to be in. (Your Function may be F/A...but your industry selection will last longer and prove more critical to your career than your Funciton.)

6) Narrow down 5 companies in each of these industries, then marke to them. Find out their needs, contacts, etc. and let them know you exist and why you think you would be successful there.

7) Know thoroughly the role of a F/A in one of those industries...be prepared. (Budgets, Forecasts, What-if analysis, make-versus-buy decisions, etc.)

8) Have the skills required to be a successful F/A...are your REALLY good at Excel? Can you read a Financial Statement with confidence? Do you understand their industry and how their business works such that you could spot irregularities?

Then you are READY! Go get 'em, tiger!

Question from Jessica, mid-size nonprofit:
    I work with several donors in the field that I would like to transition into. They are a wealth of knowledge about the industry, but I am hesitatant to approach them because they are donors and I wonder if it is a question of ethics. I would not ask for a job, but rather, like to "pick their brains." What are your thoughts on working with donors outside one's role as a fundraiser and how you would approach them?

Eric Webber:
    I'd be surprised if donors would find that sort of approach objectionable. If the donors got to their position on their own (as opposed to, say, inheriting it) then I'll bet that one of the characteristics they have, and likely admire, is ambition. I can't see how they'd hold it against you if you indicated, subtly at first, that what you're doing now isn't the last job you'll ever have.

When I fist made the jump into PR, I went to many different people - journalists, competitors, potential clients, and asked them honestly for advice and guidance. I was careful not to be too "pitchy" or to ask for too much. But nobody ever accused me of playing it coy or working them, and I got a wealth of good advice.

Question from Debora, small nonprofit:
    I'm interested in transitioning out of my nonprofit. What experiences do you recommend I seek out in order to build skills needed in for-profits? NB: I'm interested in working for a "triple-bottom line" corporation. I've often thought my background would be most suitable for the marketing department (I have a research and writing and program director background) but marketing is a distinct profession with its own rules and regulations....

Thanks for any advice!

Paul Herrerias:
    Debora,

As I have mentioned, really work the career model of:

1) Trust (do I like you? can I predict your behavior? )

2) Credibility (Looks, references, resumes, speech, etc.)

3) Experience (industry, organization, relationships, functions)

4) Demographics (time, place and money).

Find where you DO fit and focus on that, not where you don't fit. Sell what you have and why they would benefit from your experience, personality, network, commitment, loyalty, etc. today.

Also, focus on their PURPOSE SYSTEM (Mission, Vision, Culture, Goals, Strategic Objectives, etc.) Sounds like you are aware of how important this is...your relationship with any firm starts here...and ends here!

Good luck!

Question from Doug (7 years mgmt at small NP):
    I am completing a(nother) Masters in Public Admin which is preparing for leadership/executive positions in the NP or Gov. sector.

Lately I have been personally, professionally, and academically enthralled with "cause branding" and "social marketing". I am now seriously considering the jump to the 'private side' and pursuing those interests with an advertising firm.

What advice do you have for me knowing my history and where I want to go?

Thanks, Doug

Eric Webber:
    I think there is a great deal of opportunity in consulting with non-profits in the area of branding and marketing. I am very much an advocate of non-profits using the same branding techniques as non-profits. Take your cues from Wal-Mart and not so much by organizations you think are like you. Some do a good job of that, but many, many see themselves as a very different beast.

You might think of partnering with someone with an advertising or marketing background though. That could be a powerful combination.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    We have a few more questions that haven't yet been answered. We'll keep the discussion open for a few more minutes with the hope that we can accommodate as many of them as possible. Thanks.

Question from Jessica, mid-size nonprofit:
    Eric, can you be a little more specific when you refer to "core business driving issues" and provide a few more general examples of topics you would have spent more time learning about before making the transition?

Eric Webber:
    I had a donor who was in the restaurant business. So I did some homework about his specific business, but not a whole lot about the industry in general. I should have, though. I might have been more effective if I'd had an understanding of the factors that influenced, say, when and why people choose to dine out. That is, I was content to know that the guy was a successful businessman, but not necessarily why he was.

Once I made the transition, I had a lot of catching up to do in terms of understanding the business world a little more in-depth, and in understanding consumer behavior.

Question from Richard, health care organization:
    Can you recommend head hunters or consultants who can help nonprofit professionals in making the transition to the corporate world?

I am in my 40s and have been responsible for raising upwards of 20 million a year. Would getting a business degree help me at this point if I want to go corporate?

Paul Herrerias:
    Richard, Keep the Foundations in mind...good middle ground between non-profits and for-profits.

Marin Community Foundation sponsors a non-profit leadership center, and they provide a lot of information on careers as well. MCF also has an in-house library and online resources for free during business hours.

In addition to my executive search firm, Stanton Chase- San Francisco, the other Top Ten retained executive search firms frequently handle search assignments in Development.

Additionally, a specialist in the non-profit development world is Pam Cook (http://www.pamelacook.com). She may have more ideas for you.

Getting a business degree always adds to your credibility. But first, how strong is your personal network? Could you get that job today before investing two years and after-tax dollars to get an MBA? Better to get inside, then get MBA and customize it for your new employer's needs as well as your own interests.

USF has a few good master's level programs that include business, ethics, and values.

Sounds like you have been very successful. Keep it up!

And stay in touch!

Question from Walter, Academic Healthcare Center:
    How does leadership skills/qualities in a not for profit setting translate into a for profit environment?

Eric Webber:
    I think leadership is leadership, Walter. Understanding how to lead people, and doing it well, is a difficult thing. If you can master that, then "what" you're leading people to do should be easy.

Question from Debora, small nonprofit:
    I'm wondering about getting in the door, i.e. constructing a business-savvy resume and cover letter. What recommendations do you have for translating non-profit skills into skills valued and needed by for-profits? What are some key phrases/info to include in cover letters and resumes? Thank you!

Paul Herrerias:
    Debora, Great question. Here is the short answer...give them what THEY want.

This is what I do...Go online, study the PURPOSE SYSTEM of your target companies (or their competitors!). Then devise a cover letter that address what is important to them. Where possible, recite back to them what they say they stand for, their mission, objectives, etc. Show them how you can help them to achieve their goals while living their values.

Remember to discuss not only your functional skills, but also your people skills, project management skills, resourcefulness, event management, customer relations, leadership skills, applied-values experience.

discuss your greatest accomplishements, and your greatest challenges. Give them information in their format:

"Situation faced---> Action you took ---> Outcome/Results."

Have some fun with this, share drafts with your friends and advisors. Read job postings from for-profit companies for ideas...they will give you all the ammunition you need!

Best wishes,

Paul

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Thank you to everyone who joined us today. Our time is up. We'll be back next Tuesday at noon Eastern time for our next discussion. We will talk about the release of the new GivingUSA survey and the state of fund raising in the current economy. We'll have full coverage of the survey results in our next issue -- and I expect that the results will produce a very lively discussion. See you then.

Question from Chris, top health care institution:
    After 25 years in development, I would like to make the leap from non-profit gift planning to for-profit philanthropic advising. Do financial firms have on staff charitable professionals that can help their financial advisers, and their associated clients, with gifting decisions, including ways to keep a client's assets managed in-house, while still supporting a client's favorite charity? Thank you.

Paul Herrerias:
    Chris, What an exciting question! Why do you want to make this shift? Keep your motivations written down on a 3x5 card and read them often.

When you know what you stand for, you can lead others.

The role you inquire about is often one made for you by others who see you as both a technical expert and a leader.

From my perspective, this is not a common role, though my partner Peter Deragon may be a better source for you as Investment Services is his expertise.

The Bay Area has at least 3 major Community Foundations, and I believe each has such expertise in-house. Charles Schwab has had charitable gift-giving expertise in-house. Some private equity firms have community-minded missions for their funds.

Your question deserves further investigation. I would start online, check out their web sites. Then I would contact several organizations to inquire. Also, check out some organizations that cater to philanthropy to see what you can learn there.

The major universities in the Bay Area had deep expertise in gift-giving...research a few of these folks and inquire as to their suggestions as they would know of the role you desire.

Contact me at P.herrerias@stantonchase.com if you want to continue this brainstorming as we are running out of time!

Good question...worthy of a committed effort to puruse. Keep me posted! Paul